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I live in Panama :slightly_smiling_face:

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cool @julienduteurtre! what province?

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I don't live in Panama but i'm curious about how people live there. I heard that Boquete has the best climate of Panama

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Anyone else live in Panama?

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Hi guys! I am considering to incorporate in Panama. Has anyone of you done that before? I am curious about your experiences.

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Anyone here in panama?

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Hey @alex720, bit late, but I?m here

cool, me too

where are you in panama? @ben659

Currently in the capital getting documentation sorted

Still tightly locked down but slowly relaxing a little (limited restaurant reopening times as of this week)

Where are you @alex720?

Buenaventura but I?m coming back to the city next week

Do you live in panama?

Nice! Panama will be my main base. Are you here full time?

Yes

anyone else in panama?

Hi, anyone here got a tax certificate/was deemed tax resident in Panama and stayed less than 183 days in the country? Law clearly states three options to get a tax residency: 1. Being in the country for at least 183 days in a year. 2 Have substantial economic activities or centre of economic activities in the country 3. To have family interests there. Will it be accepted if one stays 60 to 90 days per year and shows yearly rental agreement and/or utility bills? Will that be enough?

Technically 2 does seem possible within the letter of the law, but it seems there is room for the issuing officer to deny it if he is not satisfied. I'd reach out to a law firm that assists in obtaining the certificate and get their advice. Kraemer&Kraemer would be a good starting, though I hear they can be a bit slow on answering phones.

I would be interested in the answer too btw.

Which country do you need to show the tax certificate to?

Here's another firm that seems to know what he's talking about https://www.icazalaw.com/tax-residency-certificate/

@umesh.desai Yes I sent them an email Yesterday (Kraemer), will contact the second law firm you mentioned. Tax Certificate would have to be shown to Europe country.

@geoffrey.theodule @umesh.desai i got my 2020 panama tax certificate after staying for 6+ months. curious if it?s possible under 183 days as well

they do seem to implicitly acknowledge that you may be out of the country so you cannot satisfy the 183 day requirement, and for that, they'll accept a tie to the country of a lease contract, and a utility bill.

My lawyer informs me that the rule is now 189 days in a calendar year

I?m not sure if maintaining it on the basis of economic or family interests is still allowed. Things seem to change in Panama every year, although I suspect more changes than usual have been ushered in this year due to the abnormal global circumstances

OK, she confirms that the comercial and family ties still apply. I?m finding out what the relevant evidence would be

@ben659 she is saying you don?t need to stay 189 days if you have econimic or family ties?

Exactly, @buynps.org. I have a meeting with her in person on Friday to discuss in detail

It?s complicated though. I don?t think exactly 189 days in Panama would necessarily guarantee another country won?t make a claim on you

@ben659 yeah, limited upside, if there is no tax treaty?

That?s what I?m thinking - does it even make much of a difference if I have a Panama tax residence certificate?

Maybe for banks

I think a fiscal number would be enough for most banks

And the country you?re leaving

If they audit you

How do you mean?

It might be considered

Oh, yes, you mean if the country you?re leaving audits you

In my case, Portugal may ask for a tax certificate in my new country. But if I didn?t have one, my case would be that I even didn?t step foot on Portuguese soil in 2021, I?m not a citizen, and I don?t own a house, have a permanent residence, or have any family ties there.

So maybe they would back off more quickly if I had the certificate to show, but I?m struggling to imagine they can claim I was tax resident in Portugal in 2021

I suppose it also depends on each countries' rules, some will tax based on citizenship if you cannot prove you were tax resident elsewhere. I know australia is like that.

Yeah, fortunately I?m British

same

I?m actually not going to step foot in Portugal for two years, cause if you return in less than two years they can claim you owe tax for the entire period

I doubt just entering Portugal would have any effect, but I?d rather not even visit as a precaution

So I guess my situation is technically ?tax nomad?, but with Panama as a fallback, being the place I spent the most time, have my dentist etc

I?m speaking to my Panamanian lawyer about being a ?tax nomad? and what her take on it is, which will be interesting to hear

Trying to decide whether to get a Panama tax number (NIT) to show to future banks, or whether that will just create extra headaches for me in Panama

interesting

I've recently arrived in panama, and my plan is to get a tax id for that very purpose. I'd like also to be a nomad, with the ability to say I am resident in panama if anyone asks.

which is why the idea of not having to spend 6 months of the year in panama is appealing

if you have a connection through a lease and utility bills

Do you already have FNV / permanent residence? If not, you?ve definitely missed the boat unless you want to buy expensive real estate

I have it

I got my permanent residence card last week

Nice, I just got in there too

Also got my card last week - just have to wait two months before I can get a cédula

yep, same. my lawyer said that once we get the cedula, then getting a tax id is easy

Looks like we both chose Panama with the hope of it being the best option for being a nomad

:+1:

I looked at the online NIT application form

You can apply with your passport number, you don?t need a cédula

The two options are PASSPORT and CEDULA, in fact

But applying for the NIT is effectively saying the the Panamanian gov, ?I?m starting freelance activity here?, and this might trigger interest in whether your income should be determined as locally sourced or not

hmm, i doubt they are going to clamp down on laptop workers though, it would scare the crap out of anybody that is thinking of applying for their newly announced digital nomad visa

What?s the rhetoric regarding tax for this new nomad visa?

Cause they might be expecting laptop nomads to be paying the 20% rate for the work they do while here

i think they just want nomads to come and boost the local economy with their spending. They've said they'll allow you to stay in panama for a period of time, forget if it was 9 months, or 18 months as long as your income is not sourced within panama, i.e. you are not taking jobs away from locals

What is a nit application form?

@alex720 NIT = *Número de Identificación Tributaria*

I believe all fiscal entities, e.g. business or individual, need one in order to file a Panamanian tax return

You apply for it online https://etax2.mef.gob.pa/etax2web/Login.aspx

i thought cedula number was the tax number for individuals

@alex720 that?s my understanding too - previously confirmed by lawyer and accountant

I believe you need a NIT for anything related to tax. In the form to request the NIT, you chose to link it either to your cédula or your passport

@ben659 are you looking at becoming a permanent resident or are you looking at the nomad visa?

I?m a permanent resident

Got it.

When I spoke to my lawyer and my accountant about getting a tax certificate and filing tax returns (even if nil) they say I first need to register for a NIT

My case is probably exceptional - my Portuguese accountant is specifically requesting a tax certificate to prove I moved fiscal residence so it can be updated in the Portuguese system

Hmm okay. What would be the purpose of filing a nil return in Panama? Is it ?just in case? or does your home country/prior place of residency require it to show separation?

Ah, yea okay.

I?m looking at an alternative option if possible to keep Portugal happy, cause it?s $2,500 in lawyer?s fees to get the certificate

In all instances that I have experienced first hand and second hand through close friends, the E-8 cedula number has not only been accepted but typically requested when providing a tax ID number both in Panama and abroad.

@buynps.org sounds like he can provide more useful info on the process of getting a tax certficiate

Thanks for the info @mescos, that?s good to know. I?ll talk to my lawyer to confirm the need for an NIT

Good luck!

Thanks. @buynps.org Can you give us info on what the process was like to get the certificate? Did you lawyer ask for lots of specific documentation and expensive fees?

From my experience, the TIN matches the Cédula number, but I had to apply for it.

oh, my lawyer said it would be easier to get the tin once you had a cedula - so both being the same number validates that statement

My lawyer told me the same

Probably you'll need rental agreement + utility bills + Statements to show movements in Panama bank account (make some payments with debit card when abroad, paying a recurrent bill etc) + Migration document stating entrances and departures (even if you stayed like 60 days per year). Heard it's on a per case basis, and the more you prove the better. Disclaimer: I have not done it myself but that's what I have been told.

@ben659 yes they want migration records, uber/grocery receipts, costs around $600usd

k

@buynps.org Interesting, thanks for sharing. Were migration records and taxi/shopping receipts enough? E.g. did they specifically ask for a rental receipt and utility bills, too? Would they accept bank statements showing purchases on the ground in Panama, or do they ask for physical receipts?

@ben659 no, they will order the migration records from the ministry

@ben659 you can?t trick them :smile:

the only way is if we can spend like 3 months here and travel rest of the time..

@buynps.org Not trying to trick them, I?ve been on the ground, just haven?t kept shopping receipts and never rented a property

@ben659 uber recordS?

Yep I have that

thats fine

Sweet

you might need rental agreement, i can?t remember

address here

Ok :confused:

Hopefully my hotel?s address will be OK

yep

if you need a lawyer to get this, let me know?

i applied aug 2020 and got it jun 2021

:smile:

so very fast by panama standards - you got it in less than a year

I think you?ll need a one year lease

To show it?s your home for the whole year

Doubt a hotel receipt will be ok

Especially if spending less than 6mo

And no local employment family etc

I will be spending 6 months

@buynps.org My lawyer is asking for $1,000. Not sure why it was $2,500 the first time I asked months ago, maybe because it was before I had permanent residency and it would have been more complex. Mind DMing me a contact for the lawyer you used to compare price? :pray:

hey @ben659 so you?ll also need your PR + cedula ? here was the price quote i got last time, $535.00 roughly, not sure if it went up or not. let me know if you would go with him at this price, and i can pass you a contact/intro? looks bad on me if you just hit them up to shop around? > Noted on the below. If you could drop the papers at the office that would be great. I do not recall whether I gave you our fees for this service or not. In any event, we are charging $535.00 + expenses (copies, notary fees).

I was quoted $642.00 + expenses by this person @buynps.org

Hey @alex720 and @buynps.org, $642 + expenses might end up closes to the $1,000 my lawyer quoted?

Based on the permanent residency I know my lawyer is well connected and gets results quickly, so maybe worth a bit extra :man-shrugging: she says she doesn?t see why I wouldn?t be able to get the certificate using my hotel?s address as long as I meet the technical requirements, but she doesn?t recommend it. I guess she?s never had to do it before without a rental contract or property title

Pretty sure this ain?t gonna happen with so many US banks here, but interesting nonetheless!

What uS banks in panama? @ben659

just Citibank which has a minimal commercial banking presence afaik

@alex720 Meant to say US money / interests. If the IMF etc aren?t happy with El Salvador supplanting USD, they?re definitely not going to be happy with Panama. Just seems so unlikely this would go through, what do you think?

Yeah

Could always be used as leverage to get something in return for dropping it

Or the IMF could just refuse Panama any credit until they drop it :face_with_rolling_eyes: