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set the channel description: Topics focused on Australians

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heyyyy

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Token kiwi joining

the tax residency situation in australia is a mess

definitely needs a reform

Yes indeed

I have some information from my time living abroad

Are any of you currently residing in Australia?

I?m not. I?ve been in the US for the last few years, but now I?m planning to jump between Aus, Indonesia and Japan for the next couple of years.

Where are you based @johncitizen?

Brisbane at present, moved back to Australia a year ago

Nice, I?m from the Gold Coast, went to uni in St Lucia for 5 years

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@daniel UQ? My partner works there now.

yeah exactly.

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Sgarnon cobbers

Question: anyone ever asked the ATO for a copy of their own records?

Basically to check your records against theirs

Make sure everything is up to date

Never

I don't know if it's one of those situations where it's better not to ask haha

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Still in Aus for another 2ish months then hopefully off to Panama! Also filing a PBR for a tax exemption under Section 23AD/AG. We'll see how that goes....

@burrup.lambert those exemptions are for defence force, no?

Primarily yes, for members in uniform, but it is also possible outside of Navy, Army, Air Force, for example, AFP, DFAT. It's a grey area in the tax act (who would of thought?). Technically it doesn't specify that your employer has to be the government (mine isn't). Being common law however the ATO refer to past PBRs which are usually bullshit. Hopefully it's a favourable outcome but I'm not holding my breath.

Inviting a few more in

Anyone still a resident holding overseas assets?

I blew over on the $50k test and ownership of foreign entities, let you know the outcome. I only declared CGT on profits. They didn?t ask for any more info... strange.

whats the 50k test?

Assets exceeding $50k AUD locates offshore

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Thanks johncitizen, didn't realize this channel existed

How is everyone here handling tax-residency?

Do y'all know of good accountants who are specialists in this area?

At the moment my situation is fairly straight forward so this year I am using https://www.expattaxes.com.au. Shane lives between Vietnam and Melbourne. Also if you are looking for a mailforwarder, that address they have for Melbourne is actually provided my http://HotSnail.com.au which I also use.

Cool. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll check them out.

Ok step 1 for me, I'm looking to speed up my own research by asking for country suggestions for tax residency? I run 2 online businesses (ecom and consulting) and I'm looking to reduce income tax, I'm also an active trader so looking to remove CGT from my life. Currently looking into Malaysian residency but seems the MM2H program has been halted, Philippines also interesting but I plan to employ there this year so not sure yet if that will cause issues.

Would love to hear from others who've been through the process.

At risk of spamming the group I'm an Aussie who chose Andorra to be home.

I've typed out my situation so many times I built this website to explain it all: https://andorraguides.com/

Haven't been to Philippines but we sussed out Panama, Malaysia, Thailand and they weren't the right fit. Andorra is actually a place we can live and enjoy.

The others all felt like a sacrifice.

Not spamming jase, thanks for the reply. I've been to Andorra and its a great place, worked near there in my youth. I'll def check out your site.

Depending on your age it's probably changed a lot.

Hmm didn't have enough fingers, 20 years since I've been...

A few more roads, bridges and tunnels have been made since then :slightly_smiling_face:

Since I only just discovered it (although Simon mentions it in IC), Australians can get a Canadian WHV up to and including age 35 and for 24 months, most other countries only go up to age 30 and are 12 months. The age increase was only announced last year.

Also, Ireland.

Ha! That's new. Nice

Brilliant!

Also for those with the relevant backgrounds, Shell are building Canada LNG soon. Could land some high paying work over that way even for a contractor

@johncitizen tempting, though I'm trying to get out of the rat race :stuck_out_tongue:.

How did this work out for you @johncitizen?

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I got an update on the Super, I went over on the 250k for super and didn't account for that properly, had to pay back a couple of grand on tax mismatches, otherwise for the CGT all my self declarations were ok.

Well shit... missus just scored a scholarship. In Canberra...

Looks like we?ll move down there around July for 2 years.

Enjoy those winters!

This guy got one of my coworkers through a hairy tax audit relating to residency disputes with ATO.

He?s only spent 6 months overseas on a short contract as a resident (on a working residence visa). This guy got him through the audit somehow.

@burrup.lambert I?m happy to go there, I?m only home half the year anyway.

Thanks @johncitizen. I'll keep for reference. I'm currently using a Canberra based firm to help me decide whether I have a valid case to lodge a Private Binding Ruling for tax exemption for my time OS. TBH I used to hate Canberra but I lived there for around 7 months last year and it's not that bad. Just bloody cold!

Any tips?

We need to live close to ANU I think.

Has anyone here done research into tax minimisation while living in Aus?

I've always wondered what strategies people use within Aus

The only people I know just keep negative gearing more properties, but surely there's a smarter way

@johncitizen. I was living in Kingston/Manuka (near the Supabarn) and Lyneham (Axis Apartments). Most of your traffic will be on Northbourne Avenue, not really any way around it either. As Canberra is quite flat quite a few people ride bicycles and there are riding lanes and paths (through parks for example), might be an option. There are some shittier suburbs, do your due diligence and have a look, IMO Dickson wasn't that nice (however it was the closest set of shops to me). Manuka and Braddon both have nice little community area. There are lots of apartments at Kingston along the water however it feels a bit like a manufactured concrete jungle to me. Keep an eye on pricing if you are buying/renting. My friend just bought a property in South Canberra (Calwell) and saved himself around AUD$200k by just adding an extra 10 minutes to his drive to work by going a couple suburbs out.

@jase Selling shares at capital loss prior to EOFY and buying back in new FY? Will depend of course on your reason for entry, stock is undervalued etc.

Ah yeah that's true. I guess I was thinking more about structuring. I figure most business owners just buy everything in their life through a company

Spread income across yourself + spouse to avoid higher brackets (if applicable)

@jase my coworkers use a discretionary trust and pay themselves a normal income. ($80k pa) Trust laws for contractors are crazy hard, you need to distribute all earnings from the trust, but you can buy shares or property within it and delay distributions that way.

Interesting - I've read that a lot of those laws are up for changes at the moment

Yeah, what my coworkers do is illegal. You?re not supposed to source 100% of income from one place as a contractor.

Otherwise they should just be casual employees.

ah i see

I've been visiting Australia on holiday, blows me away how much cash is here

Everyone is loaded

It phenomenal. You can go work at the mines topping up fuel in generators and make $200k a year with a quarter of the year off.

I'm doing life wrong!

Some of the more intense projects see a scaffolding supervisor making $320k AUD a year working 4 weeks on 1 week off

Impressive

Imagine the Maloo ute you could deck out with that sort of cash

:joy:

And the jetski to go with it :wink:

I'm not kidding, my mate has a Hilux ute, 1100hp Nissan GTR, some sort of motocross bike, stand up Jetski, and a Hyundai Excel that is built for the track

My European friends can't even fathom it ahahah

Most Australians are pretty irresponsible with money.

Actually, I?ll rephrase that, Australia is irresponsible with money. We sell raw resources to China and buy refined products back off them. You don?t see so many Australian made labels like you would in the US

We're basically the farmer that complains about the guy who adds value is making money

Yes except the farmer can replant and resow. For coal, iron, gas, oil, copper, uranium. These are all finite.

For a heads up, I?m in Brisbane, Perth, Canberra and Melbourne over the coming 6 weeks.

Hey. Do you guys know any good accountants for aussie tax resident service contractors (software)?

Hey Daniel, I have a recommendation for one for contracting. (I?m a solo engineering consultant for oil & gas, mining).

@johncitizen cool, please forward me their details. thanks :pray:

A reminder for all Aussies who have left indefinitely, don't forget to remove yourself from the AEC (and all other relevant government offices) > https://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/overseas/index.htm. My sister who has been living overseas for 3 years just got called for jury duty...

Aussie government to a tee. Wait time on partner visa updated to 19-33 months. Wait time on my pilots license conversion is now 8 weeks after submitting everything certified, I emailed them and they said they?ll do it in their own time. :/

Could be worse, could be in South America or SE Asia.

you have a pilots license? that's pretty cool. I'm looking into getting one at some point. Which country did you get it in?

Australia as an RPC, converting it to RPL and then soon after should have my International PPL

If I could do it all again I would go to the cheapest country in the world that does a Part 61 PPL license (Phillipines is a good start), then do 2-3 months intensive for the PPL, come back to Australia and do a few hours conversion to the Australian PPL. Would have saved a fortune, but my problem is time.

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Anyone have a recommendation for a lawyer to set up a trust? Probably family trust, will be used for visa qualification purposes for Argentina.

@burrup.lambert give me a few days and I?ll get back to you, any preference for city?

@johncitizen Sydney would be closest to me, thanks!

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Any one had experience with attempting to get their Super when they've left Australia permanently? Refering to Australia citizens here. I'm finally looking to leave permanently and looking at how I might get my super out. Doesn't seem to be any 'easy' way...

Further research...

It looks like we can transfer super across to NZ > https://www.kiwisaver.govt.nz/already/get-money/early/moving/ > . NZ has a scheme where if you move otherseas to a country OTHER THAN AUSTRALIA you can get your Super. Original plan was write stat dec stating I am moving to NZ, transfer AUS Super to NZ, 'leave' NZ to anywhere else but Australia then file to claim super after 1 year. It turns out though that any AUS sourced Super must stay in NZ... which defeats the whole idea so there goes that idea...

Considering we can transfer our super though, it may be more beneficial to have it in NZ. It may be easier to get our super according to their super rules for financial hardship etc, I'll have to look into this.

Another advantage which I did not know is that NZ Super is not subject to CGT on Australasian Shares. If you control your own super an invest mainly in AUS/NZ, ASX etc you could be paying 0% CGT instead of 15% CGT in Australia.

Quick google search though looks like NZ may be catching on to that with new tax reforms.

Interested in hearing what other people have done. Left it in Australia? Moved it into a SMSF? If so, how did you get around the SMSF residency rules?

@burrup.lambert Kiwi here, IIRC correctly the government decided not to move forward with the CGT proposed by the working tax group. Too much political fallout

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@burrup.lambert this is good research man. You also have 4 years offshore income exempt when moving to NZ, so it could be a good short term residence option as well. You can also swap your drivers license for one while there as well.

Interesting. I'll have to look more into in. It could definitely be an option for me. I am planning on leaving Australia permanently by the end of the year for Argentina. As it stands now basically all of my affairs are in order. Re: the NZ CGT reform coming in. I was advised by another user that it was scrapped for now, too much outcry.

I had been planning to use the NZ 48 month transitional resident exemption next year, but after deeper investigation its really quite useless. While CFC income is exempt, your decision making/management of the company within NZ makes it taxable as a resident company (regardless of overseas board meetings). While foreign trust income is exempt, if you are NZ tax resident and are the settlor then the trust is considered NZ resident AND non-complying (45% tax on income and capital gains). The only exemption from FIF rules are ASX listed equities, ALL other dividends are taxable either under FIF or CFC rules. Australian superannuation transferred to a KiwiSaver is not able to be withdrawn after emigration to a third country, as mentioned above by @burrup.lambert Not to mention that virtually all capital gains *ARE* taxable in New Zealand, not under a capital gains tax but as "financial arrangements" taxable under ordinary income. You're even taxed on annual unrealized gains of these "financial arrangements"! Forget it people, its a trap...

@carrabeanga What is the definition of management and decision making though? Couldn't you run one company that flows through to another entity that you take a passive income from? You'd be the owner of the other entity but surely there's a way to pay out passive income based on zero decision making. Therefore only 'managing' the first company which is unprofitable as all profits push to the second company.

That wouldn't change the fact that the first company is a CFC owned (part or whole) and managed by you from NZ, and therefore taxed on its profits as a local company before it makes distributions to the second company. I'm not sure hiring a foreign manager would change the situation either, the language used talks about the "centre of management" and "director control" - presumably you would have to provide proof decisions were made outside of the country. You can go through the list of transitional resident exemptions and then cross them all off as you find other parts of the code that simply negate the exemption for almost all use cases. Its a joke.

Yeah, the impression I get is you actually have to be a passive shareholder. IE have a offshore business with substance, independent management, etc No sense being mad at tax authorities savvy enough to see through our paper companies though. Improvise, adapt. The global net is only getting tighter, one day soon the very idea of a community dedicated to even trying to discuss these things will be the joke. Make hay other places while the sun shines

Heh, yeah more frustrated at myself for not seeing through the doublespeak earlier.

Hey, you did the research and avoided a bad decision - nothing wrong with that. Speaking as a kiwi, our IRD have pursued and won some outlandish things in the courtroom

Damn, I'd never looked into it too closely but figured it was a good backup if my wife dragged us back to the southern hemisphere. Thanks for doing the research @carrabeanga. Best kept for retirement when retail investments pay your way then.

Pro tip: have a kid and show them how good life is abroad.

Our kid is 18 months old and already comprehending 2 languages. By their 5th year in school here (eco ethos schools with organic food by the way) they're learning 3 languages officially.

Its still possibly useful for business owners willing to be taxed for 183 days to acquire NZ tax residency, and then move on to another country with the potential for the next 42 months tax free.

Be aware though, once you are tax resident the IRD will claim you as their property until you are absent from NZ for more than 325 days in a 12-month period.

Thanks @carrabeanga, I just did a week there to get my IRD, license, bank, etc. will limit myself to a month in country from now on :slightly_smiling_face:

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Hey guys, does anyone use a virtual address/mail forwarder in Aus?

Hotsnail, works great, has a PAYG plan. Would recommend.

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2nd vote for hotsnail

Is there any realible crypto OTC in Australia?

Try Independent Reserve, CoinJar, BTCMarkets?

Thanks, looked for some physical OTCs in Melbourne, nobody replied

I thought at least one of them did OTC but I could have been mistaken! Perhaps try a BTC ATM provider like BitRocket etc?

I'm thinking about moving to Australia by 2021. What is the general personal dividend tax for your overseas companies?

I have companies in HK and Europe and no customers in Australia

Thinking ways to efficiently tax it back

Have you looked into the CFC rules?

Yes, but still don't specify tax rates

Any Freedomsurfer in Melbourne for a coffee? I'm planing to stay here for two weeks

Anyone used https://atlaswealth.com/?

I haven't used them but I'm in their FB group and follow their YT videos. They seem pretty switched on. Although, they mostly focus on expat employees from what I've seen. Not business owners.

Yeah that seems to be the general gist I get as well.

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Aussie citizen non residents, do you completely minimise your time in Australia? For example would a visit of 3 months be too long/go against you from the ATOs point of view?

I haven't been back (left 5 months ago) but the general advice I was told is don't visit more than 4 times a year with the total time not being more than 4 weeks

I think it was based off a TR and it was determined that the person was NOT a tax resident

I keep my visits to a minimum. I usually visit 1-2 times a year for a few weeks at a time. The general rule I follow is making sure I act like a tourist/non resident. I visit multiple cities, visit family and friends etc. And make sure not to touch anything related to banking, healthcare etc. 3 months is fine if you've got a legitimate base and tax residency somewhere else. Doing that every year may be an issue though, especially if the ATO can find any type of ties to Australia.

Good feedback, thanks folks. I've done my best to close all doors in Australia but time spent there is one of few remaining things.

Medicare should expire this year I believe, final tax return has finally been done.

We tend to slow travel - last visit to Australia was 2 months but at least 9 months of our year is spent in Andorra. Should be easy to prove tax residency in Andorra if it ever came to it but - you never know right?

The ATO are pretty aggressive. But if you're living 9 months a year in Andorra, paying tax there, have a home etc. It would be hard for the ATO to have a claim. Also, I don't think it's an issue if you don't move back to Australia in the near future. As far as the ATO is concerned, you've left Australia permanently if you've done your final tax return and paid any exit taxes etc.

Did you wait until the end of the FY for the year you left Australia Jase? For e.g I left October 2019 but I was told it was better to wait until the end of this FY before filing my 'final' tax return including deemed disposal etc as there may be outstanding capital gains and it's a pain to try calculate it early.

I plan on leaving a few bank accounts and my drivers licence (I renewed it before I left). I haven't found a replacement for my Citibank Everday Plus card yet!

No plans to move back any time soon, I have it too good here!

@burrup.lambert no, I think, around September in the year we left. I had no capital gains that I recall and have been trying to close everything out since. Ironically my last tax return was only due to Westpac not being able to close an account. It is insane how long they took and the things they screwed up in that process.

I'm fairly sure I overpaid tax in the last few years but for me it's kind of the price of leaving too, so whatever.

@jase you live in Andorra?

Yes @julianmb

Can't remember for how long but I think about 5 years now

Cool, how's life there?

Aussie dollar is dying rapidly. Took most of my personal cash out of AUD a few weeks ago. But have a business there which is going to suffer. 0.56USD 18.16THB 0.51EURO 0.80SGD :sweat_smile::sweat_smile::sweat_smile::sweat_smile::sweat_smile:

Crazy was going to buy a house in Melbourne with USD, but seems the more I wait the more discount I can get. This is called deflation and can have a big impact on the economy

100%, I think the worst is yet to come for Australia. Holding off longer, you will get a great deal. The Australian economy is going to struggle, especially if the government stimulus package fails at increasing consumer spending. Get your popcorn and diversify your holdings, it's going to be interesting.

Pretty great man. :smile: https://jaserodley.com/living-in-andorra/ https://andorraguides.com/

Agreed. I'd been looking to property in Andorra but with the EUR where it is today and prices locally peaking now is not the time. I can get a small farm in Australia for the price of an apartment here, maybe 2 farms by the end of the year...

I like the farm idea, best investment in crisis

With water and solar cells to be totally independent from outside

I'm especially interested in saltwater greenhouses and how they can be leveraged in Australia

arid/worthless land on the coastline (access to salt water)...

They did it in Port Augusta SA... They supply 15k+ tonnes of tomatoes to Coles each year and have a 10 year contract

Isn?t bushfire a risk in rural Australia?

Well positioned for marijuana legalisation as well

Depends entirely on the area @jerrycjchang

But simple answer "yes"

Fact of life in Aus

Potentially an increasing risk too

Irony is after each of these major fires it gets safer for some people

Over the last 20 years, burning off has been limited. It used to happen a lot but they stopped it.

Today there's so much fuel about, so they get out of control.

Lived in Australia for many, many years and loved it. Personally I?m interested in rural property in New Zealand where I grew up

But prices are also high and probably at a peak. So best to wait

Yeah I like NZ as well. Lifestyle wise can be better for me as well. NZD stronger against the AUD at the moment (though I haven't watched this closely for a long while).

Feels to me NZ is really loving the migration boom. Otherwise what can hold things up, the dairy industry?

AUD briefly dipped below NZD against US dollars last week. Crazy markets we have right now

Good time to buy in Aus

Aud

I think Aud is going to rebound because China is going to resume imports soon

@jerrycjchang you might be interested in: https://myfarm.co.nz/

Problem is, currency hedging and property prices aside, tax in Aus or NZ is insane.

Interesting. Awatere is a famous vineyard

I've entertained going back to Aus one day but it's unbelievably hard to justify. Maybe I just don't know enough about Aussie tax optimisation

Yeah, it?s crazy but for many years (I don?t live in Australia anymore). Living in Aus as a NZ citizen had tax benefits when it comes to capitals gains on equity, ie I didn?t have to pay any

after healthcare an effective tax rate on US$250k is: Andorra: 11.2% Australia: 40.7%

and that's just income, doesn't take into account capital gains

Income and property capital gains were as per normal though

I wish there was a website you could go to and see the "effective" or "average" tax rate that individuals or companies paid based on a certain revenue

I'm guessing all small business/company owners in Australia and NZ just have the company pay everything for them and run the business as break even as possible

Not that easy, ATO watches that

no doubt

Where do you guys live now/are resident?

Well I was kind of a ?digital nomad? until the virus showed up lol

ha yeah

I'm pretty glad to have a home base, I see a lot of my friends freaking out and heading home at the moment

I think the nomad thing is over now haha

Yeah I?m just home for now. No way to plan further out at this point

I call Argentina home now. Will so for the next couple years then not sure. Somewhere a bit more tax friendly I think.

Cool man. I know a lot of Argentinians here. They all talk about how messed up it is. Nice to get a different opinion.

I guess everyone feels that way about the country they left :)

Yep, we all left for a reason! Like I said, I only left 5 months ago but I'm not heading 'home'. People always ask me why I left. People just don't get it...

I feel as though it's "stablised" for me at the moment.

When I first left I was adamant the country is screwed and that anywhere is better, etc

Then I went through a period of "man life in Andorra's hard"... over the honeymoon period

Now I think I recognise that nowhere is perfect. It's all pros/cons. And it's actually really hard to assess those pros/cons

For example: Andorra, access to mountains is a big deal, but Australia has access to family which is a big deal. Very difficult to objectively assess both countries against each other.

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Has anyone researched the Australian Limited Partnership?

It seems they can be a pass-through entity though I am unsure if local income is taxable if operations are abroad.

Deserves further research as I'd like to be able to set up .http://com.au websites without liability in Australia

I received this advice (was in relation to a General Partnership, could be all?): Regarding the Partnership, the below should be read carefully: The net income or loss of a partnership and the exempt income of a partnership are calculated by reference to income from all sources, whether Australian or ex-Australian. The calculations are made on the assumption that the partnership is a resident taxpayer (s 90: ¶5-070). Where the partner is a resident for the whole of the year of income, no difficulty arises. The partner is assessable on their share of the net partnership income or is entitled to a deduction for their share of the partnership loss; and if there is exempt income of the partnership, the partner?s exempt income includes their share of the partnership exempt income (¶5-130). In the case of a partner who is a non-resident for the whole or a part of the year of income, special rules ensure that such a partner is not assessed on income derived from foreign sources while the partner was a non-resident (s 92). ? *A partner who is a non-resident for the whole of the year is assessable only on so much of their interest in the net income of the partnership as is attributable to sources in Australia.* If there is a partnership loss, the partner may claim a deduction only for their share of the loss that is attributable to Australian sources. If there is exempt income of the partnership, the exempt income includes only the partner?s share of the partnership exempt income that is attributable to Australian sources. ? A partner who is a non-resident for part only of the year is assessable on: (a) so much of their share of the net income of the partnership as is attributable to Australian sources; and (b) so much of the net income as is attributable to foreign sources and to the period when the partner is a resident. Similar rules apply where there is a partnership loss or partnership exempt income. *Under the provisions of the tax law applicable to partnerships, an Australian source is attributed to certain royalties paid to non-residents and ?natural resource income? respectively (¶21-070).*

------ This one was a little complicated because the partnership owned shares in an ASX listed company and the majority of the companies business was conducted in Australia, deeming it Australian sourced. If the partnership invested in something overseas there would generally be no tax liability and it would pass through to the non-resident partner. As usual, not tax advice, definitely a doozy, I can put you in touch with who I received it from.

For my use case I don't think it's going to make sense as the income would be from Aussie businesses.

But maybe it's like the UK LLP or BC LLP... Could be an interesting entity for those doing business abroad with operations abroad.

Would the other partners be Australian residents? Banking could be a pain (if using Australia banks), you might ALL be required in person at the branch to open. TransferWise should work though.

Could go either way

Either Aussie partner to make life easier or no Aussie partners to reduce any burdens

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Anyone have references to help estate planning for Australian resident but the estate is going to non-residents for tax purposes? You used Wealth Safe didn't you @jase? I'm looking to sort my mothers estate out (including super) and wondering how it will be taxed when she dies, super, house, estate tax etc. My sister and I are both non-residents for tax purposes. DM if you like!

*2 year rule I was unaware of:* An Australian expat who relocates overseas will need to show that they have established a ?permanent place of abode? overseas, otherwise they will remain an Australian tax resident for tax purposes. As a general rule, an Australian expat who relocates overseas for less than 2 years will not have established a permanent place of abode overseas and therefore remain an Australian tax resident. Furthermore, an expat that although has lived overseas for more than two years but does not live in the one country for that time will have likely not establishment a permanent place of abode overseas (for example, yachtsman). https://www.murphytax.com.au/australian-tax-residency-the-domicile-test-and-permanent-place-of-abode/

This was my motivation not to be nomadic but instead choose a home base where I spend 90%+ of my time

I was told the same advice, leave, and don't come back for at least 2 years if you can help it. And when you do come back, don't come back for more than 4 trips totalling 4 weeks per year.

I wasn't told to not visit within those 2 years, but just to make sure I'm spending a greater % of my year in my new country of residence than anywhere else

I'll put this one here for @jase @994kaloyan. Must have got the right person on the phone. If you want to cancel your Medicare, do this: > EMAIL: > SUBJECT: CANCEL CARD > MESSAGE: > > Hello, > > My name is X. My Medicare card number is X. My passport number is X. I have moved overseas permanently. Please cancel my medicare account. > > Kind regards, > > X And add a scan of your Australian passport (just a copy, does not need to be certified). Alternatively she said you can use your Australian drivers license (if you still have it). And your done! Medicare is cancelled. She did mention the "come back within 5 years" thing but I was insistent I was not returning and the detailed the above procedure. Good luck!

FYI: If you tell CommSec you are a non-resident they will *immediately* suspend your account and only allow you to SELL existing shares. You cannot purchase any new shares or even transfer shares in. This applies to *all accounts you are a part of, even joint accounts*.

Anyone?

Any non-resident Aussies in a SAF? I wasn't aware of the difference between a SMSF and a SAF but it seems like a SAF isn't as affected by non-resident status. From my reading you can have up to 4 people, if there are any non-residents they are not allowed to contribute *or* the members who *are* residents must make up at least 50% of the fund. Plus there is less administrative burden as the trustee is outsourced. Assuming this is all correct it looks like a great alternative for young non-resident Australians who have super stuck in Australia until preservation age and are limited to whatever investments their superfund offers.

@simon please keep some of these in notes for a future article. I can confirm this is correct for getting yourself off the books for Australia tax purposes. will find the court case transcripts that cited a lot of the ATO's reasoning for taxing foreigners when they won.

They used to call them wrap funds? 'smsf-lite'

Hi Guys. I'm moving from Hong Kong to Australia, probably I'll stay there for more than 6 months and be liable for being tax resident there. Any tips to avoid that happening ? All my income is from overseas

What visa are you coming in on?

If you come in on a tourist visa or a non-working visa I doubt there will be an issue

Tourist with special permission to enter Australia

I don?t think you?ll be a tax resident if you go in with a tourist visa, unless you get permanent residency

Interesting that you have permission to enter though! Is it easy to apply?

You need to fill this form for that

But what if you stay more than 183 days with a temporal visa ?

Any aussie non residents investing in property there? Seems to be a few different angles to buying there but I am thinking the near future might not be a bad time to buy.

Read recently about buying in personal name and negative gearing while out of the country so when you return there's many years of losses. So your first few years after returning there's no/less tax to pay.

I'd like to hear from anyone who have cashflowing property investments too, and how that is structured.

> Australian Property > Australian Property is the best tax planning tool whilst overseas and is a wise way to have forced savings. You should borrow at reasonably high levels, say 60-80% finance, to maximise tax advantages. Normally the interest cost should be enough to have the property make an annual taxable loss and the expenses of ownership and interest are higher than the annual rental. This loss is commonly referred to as "negative gearing". > > Whilst overseas this loss has nothing to offset against, except other property income or property capital gains, and accrues each year. Eventually when you return to Australia, this built up loss will be able to offset your salary, investment income or retirement income providing you with a significant buffer against taxation for many years. > > This is further enhanced by the tax benefits afforded to new and near new property for depreciation on fittings and a special allowance to deduct construction costs. The long term taxation benefits associated with Australian property should not be underestimated and should be integral in every expatriates financial planning whilst overseas.

@jase I remember reading a tax case on auslib about a 6 year rule for living abroad on PPOR

I guess if you purchase as an investment from the start CGT will apply regardless

I am not interested/have no need for a ppor

Don't want the liability/additional ties

I like cashflowing assets but don't think the value proposition makes sense here by the time you pay personal tax in Australia as a non resident

Any reason you want Aussie property? Negative geared property :face_vomiting: So many better countries to invest. Even NZ is capital gains tax free!

Mostly interested to be able to help out family.

Anyone looked into early access super?

Seems there are some covid conditions to make it easier.

On first look seems part time residents aren't eligible, no mention of non resident citizens.

Still same as last time. I've taken both my lots of $20k out. If there's any news I'm keen to hear!

how'd you manage that burrup? I've never dug into this

You didn't know? With COVID the Australian government allowed early access to super, AUD$10,000 for last FY and another $10k this FY. You still have to "meet" their requirements though

You've missed last FY as it can't get backdated but you might be able to do this year. Both times I had no issues from my super fund, ATO approved it in 4 days,.

Very interesting @burrup.lambert, I think I will give this a shot.

Found this article, maybe some of you find it interesting

I'm moving to Oz this month, I'll try to no stay more than half of a tax year

@julianmb Is your intention to gain PR/citizenship?

For that I need to continously live for 4 years? Correct?

Correct

I'll try to get HK PR first

Permanent residency in Australia means staying for over half the tax year

But who knows, there might be big geopolitical moves in the coming months that could change everything

Reading into partnerships in Australia... It appears that it is possible to have a pass-through/flow-through entity in Australia using a partnership. https://www.ato.gov.au/Forms/Partnership-tax-return-instructions-2014/ > A partnership is not a taxable entity, but it must lodge a tax return at the end of each income year. Partners are taxed on their share of the profits of the partnership or are entitled to a deduction for their share of the losses incurred by the partnership as disclosed in their own tax returns. > A partner who is not a resident of Australia is not taxed on the share of net income of the partnership attributable to sources outside Australia. Similar rules apply to temporary residents. If it is believed that any partner who has a share of such income is not an Australian resident, or, is a temporary resident, keep a record of their name and residential address, the basis of any contention and the partner?s share of income derived from sources outside Australia.

Correct. There is no tax obligation for the non-resident partner unless the income is "Australian sourced".

I don't think there is a "hard "ATO definition of Australian sourced income but I would avoid anything Australian, like ASX shares, Australian property/REITS etc.

@burrup.lambert if a non-resident Aussie wanted to sell into Australia (ecommerce), is there an entity that could work well there? I'm thinking a standard company is a no-go because it will pay corp tax and the non-resident shareholder will get slugged with a 30% withholding tax too.

Not sure about that one sorry @jase!

@jase If you are registered overseas (in a treaty country) and ship directly to Australian buyers, you won?t pay any Australian taxes (except possibly GST and import duties, depending on the products you sell). https://www.ato.gov.au/Business/International-tax-for-business/In-detail/Doing-business-in-Australia/Selling-goods-into-Australia/?anchor=selling_goods_without_presence#selling_goods_without_presence

@jase I still have a trust set up in Australia with corporate trustee and Aussie resident nominee director for an ecom set up. I've just been expensing things out to my other companies around the world making sure to stay within transfer pricing rules. It makes sense, depending on your monthly profits.

Anybody here have any experience with non-dom in Australia? I'm tax resident in Hong Kong, but in April I'll make 183 days in Australia

No bank account, not rental, no phone bill, no income in Australia

The immigration department shares visa information with the ATO - so they use their systems to look for anomalies. But I have no idea as what the trigger requirements are for them to investigate further. https://www.vsure.com.au/ato-audit-20-million-visa-holders-data-matching-immigration/

Seems some people get ABN, create companies and get some income in Australia even from people with a Tourist visa

Here I found more information

Seems it's more to tackle fraud with ABN's

It's pretty common for backpackers to come to Australia. Get an ABN, get contract labouring/trade work and then just leave without paying any tax. The companies hiring them love it as they don't have to worry about the paperwork of real staff. And the backpackers love it because they have to declare their own tax and can skip the country before paying it.

@benjamin but later they can?t ever go back to Australia, right?

@loan No idea tbh. I would think it would be risky for them, but maybe not. Coming to a country and earning 50k and owing some money is a big deal at scale. But on an individual level it's not a lot of money.

I've heard APEC is quite difficult for Aussies. One potential barrier seems to be your residence. "If you are living outside Australia, you must have permission to live and work within this economy of residence. Applicants may be required to provide evidence of their work and residence permit with their application" With this in mind...if you meet all other criteria in regards to business but you currently don't 'work' from your current residence for tax reasons..ie, Thailand, Malaysia etc. What would be a way around this? Would getting another residence within APEC locations where you spend a limited amount of time each year be an option? If so, what location/s would be a good option?... Preferably somewhere that won't bring about a tax liability or be almost impossible to get an appropriate visa and work permit. Is this even possible?

I'm Hong Kong tax resident with a HK salary and income

Aeoi/CRS is not reporting to Australia because the address for the banks is in HK

So technical ATO doesn't know anything about my baking, but seems that legally after 183 I need to fill taxes

I'm thinking to leave Oz and spend 3 months in NZ to avoid triggering the tax rule

I don?t think NZ border is open to non citizens/residents

:flag-au: Aussies: So the UK neobanks have clamped down on their relaxed security, which we were using for their nice remote daily-debit cards, so if you don?t already have an account, I think that loophole has now closed. However Australia now has a selection of good neobanks that are just as good, and I've just finished comparing them all. I was after something with: - no international transaction fees - no international ATM fees - Apple Pay - auto-categorization of expenses - side-pots for savings etc The winner is UP, and here?s my referral link for a free $10... need everything we can to buy these crypto dips with :smiling_imp::joy: https://hook.up.me/gunhudson It looks great, I got my account opened from here in the US in <10mins and I just bought a coffee with Apple Pay. You need an Aussie phone number & driver?s license or any country Passport to register. If you need an Aussie phone number again I recommend getting Vodafone?s $40 pre-paid 365day SIM sent to an Australian address, and then collaborating with your contact to activate remotely via E-Sim: https://www.vodafone.com.au/prepaid/plans/pay-and-go :mailbox_with_mail: Card turns up in the mail at an Aussie address in 3 days :point_down::skin-tone-2:

I also recommend UP. Easily changed my residence country via live chat and notified them of my foreign Tax ID. They had no issues doing the updates. All they asked was when it's time for a new card to get it sent to an AU address again.

Used UP for some time, it's the Aussie Revolut

Hi everyone, I?m pretty new here and loving all the detailed first hand experience being shared! :raised_hands: I?m an Aussie based in Thailand for several years now running an ecommerce store in Australia. I?ve still got companies and bank accounts setup in Australia but planning to completely change my setup and take advantage of Thailand?s foreign earned income tax laws. If anyone has some experience/ recommendations I?d love to to chat with you or even an advisor you?d recommend.

> *Taking the grey areas out of individual tax residency rules* > The Government has announced changes intended to simplify the tax residency rules for individuals. > The primary test under the new rules will be a so-called "simple bright line" test under which a person who is physically present in Australia for 183 days or more in any income year (i.e. the Australian tax year ending 30 June) will be an Australian tax resident. This represents a simplified version of the 183 day test used by some of our major trading partners such as the US. Even if an individual is not physically present in Australia for 183 days or more, they may still be a tax resident under secondary tests that depend on a combination of physical presence and what are cryptically described in the budget papers as "measurable, objective criteria". > The Board of Taxation's March 2019 report on modernising the tax residency rules should hold the clues to what these criteria will be. The report set out a number of tests focusing on the right to reside permanently in Australia, Australian accommodation, Australian family and Australian economic interests. The report also included certain other proposals, including an overseas employment rule, under which Australian tax residency would be lost where an individual is employed for a period of over 2 years overseas and certain other requirements are met. > The new individual tax residency rules are intended to apply from 1 July following Royal Assent. > A key issue to remember is that even if an individual is tax resident of Australia under Australian law, a tie-breaker provision of a double tax agreement may give the result that the individual is instead treated as tax resident of another country during a particular income year. https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=3363be17-20c6-4a2a-bee9-525c263a968f

> becoming a tax resident of Australia ? which a taxpayer will need to check if they spend 45 days or more in Australia in an income year https://www.cgw.com.au/publication/tax-residency-changes-in-the-wind/

Seems tough new rules for non-resident Aussie citizens are on the horizon

"Don't let the door hit you on the way out"

Glad I left when I did!

Indeed, but seems visiting for too long in future is a risk

Yep this looks like it will be a massive change

I have about 12 years experience working as a FIFO expat out of Australia where I've dropped in and out of residency. The best litmus test to give yourself an indicator is to follow Auslii court reports on tax rulings and charges against expats

There were two cases I found that made my situation become completely black and white when I read the full court transcript

Anybody have experience dealing with CFC rules in Australia? It's possible to run a company overseas but keep it without paying it back dividends and not having a problem with the ATO ? Thanks

Get more directors, use nominee directors

I had to shut my company down when I lived overseas as I was the sole director.. I remember needing to have less than 25% ownership/control to comply with CFC

Obviously get a professional opinion on your options

Oddly, it doesn't seem to impact sole trading or partnership structures the same.

I was under the impression that having a home overseas already is a ?compelling reason??

Evidently this has changed

Previously non residents were allows to leave as they pleased

Absolutely disgusting.

Cannot express how happy I am I left when I did.

I guess they are unlikely to ease the restrictions until the elections next year?

Yeah, it?s looking like late 2022

They want a 70-80% vaccine rate

Honestly I think most voters want to be controlled

There's a strong xenophobic fear, so more restrictions = good/safe for them

`Governments, via their public health officials, have instilled an undue fear in the populace which has enabled them to impose draconian restrictions on our freedoms that would otherwise not be tolerated.` https://tedscott.com.au/2021/08/01/time-for-some-plain-talking-part-1/

@burrup.lambert I'm amazed he doesn't get more rage in Aussie pop culture with what he has to say about climate change and sec changes and the like.

Maybe he does and I'm well out of the loop.

```Those who are approved will have to download the South Australian Government home quarantine app, which uses geo-location and facial recognition software to track those in quarantine. The app will contact people at random asking them to provide proof of their location within 15 minutes. "We don't tell them how often or when, on a random basis they have to reply within 15 minutes," Mr Marshall said. If a person cannot successfully verify their location or identity when requested, SA Health will notify SA Police who will conduct an in-person check on the person in quarantine.```

Yep for sure, but welcome to Australia. I'm pretty sure we both saw the direction it was going before making an exit.

Australia is getting ridiculous :upside_down_face:

Was only a matter of time I guess!