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Ahhh! What an important topic! But sadly so little interest! I have been practicing law for about 25 years, and I have sadly concluded that people will not pay attention to asset protection issues until they lose everything they have. And sadly I must admit to suffering from this same problem myself when I was younger.

@alexanderhay that's a great opening paragraph for a marketing message

you made me ponder that I need to protect the little I have

could you share what are the common mistakes people make when it comes to asset protection?

Thinking nothing bad will ever happen to you and doing nothing.

There are so many good strategies out there. But you actually have to do something before they sue you, or you get the service of divorce papers, etc. I find people don't like to think about depressing things. Thus they fail to prepare for them.

I like to consider myself a stoic (not the kind that stands around in hair shirts and such), and one of the lessons is to consider all the things that can go wrong in your life without getting hysterical about it. It helps you to prioritize and prepare. Some good reading: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asin=B0040JHNQG&preview=newtab&linkCode=kpe&ref_=cm_sw_r_kb_dp_PbXpybDCZM1NF

Seems interesting, I will take a look at it

Some other good book to learn about asset protection?

Well this guy has a few items on amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Alexander-Hay/e/B00YYE8TBA/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1

A prolific author you are Alexander

not as much as I would like. I am getting very lazy as I get older.

Heheh

Ok. Off to work for me!

You should have them in paperback version

It'd cost you very little, and the upside is good enough to make it worthwhile

Alright! Thanks for sharig

Yeah. You are right. I actually have them about 90% formatted for that using the Amazon associated publishing service. Now for motivation to finish!

now really off to work!

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@alexanderhay I've just read through both your books "How to build your wealth..." & "How you can use the USA...". Some good info to take away. Had a question regarding the former book. When you say "you will then give a 1% interest in the Personal Preservation LLC to the Trust and retain the rest for you and your spouse". Does this mean their are two members where the trust will get 1% of the membership and you the remaining %?

Yes.

Doesn't this mean that when the Settlor passes away the beneficiaries will only receive 1% ownership of the assets? How is this advantages? I'm probably missing something.

Yes. You are confusing the issue of estate planning and asset protection. The goal of the trust is to hold 1% interest in the LLC. Perhaps other assets as well depending upon your location. As I described in the material, a creditor cannot take the shares of the LLC but only an assignment of interest. A non-voting assignment of interest. So if someone sues you and wins, they cannot get the assets of the LLC only a non-voting assignment of interest. The only voting member of the LLC will be the Trustee of the Trust who will have a legal obligation to obey you and who you can fire if you like.

Thanks for explaining. Would an IBC (instead of LLC) where the trust gets 1% of shares work in a similar manner?

I'm assuming not because it doesn't work like a pertership as you explained.

No. The LLC is necessary because under US law (in most states) the LLC is treated as a partnership. As such interests in a partnership cannot be taken in full without all the other partners' consent. Thus the assignment of interests rather than actual voting shares. In the case of an IBC or some other corporate entity that shares can be seized.

Thanks Alexander

@alexanderhay: In the Bahamas trust combined with US llc example you provided in the book, would it work, to avoid paying taxes in your home country jurisdiction, if the settlor, trustee, protector and beneficiary is a belize llc (provides anonymity of client) owned by client?

In your example, is there a risk that the home country considers the trust a sham? Will banks approve opening a business account with no UBO?

@alexanderhay: I have been thoroughly reading your book; "How you can use the USA..." and I have enjoyed it very much. Interesting the non-US resident alien concept and its applications. Let's say that a German national selling digital products on the internet to clients all over the world (Germany included) wants to reduce his tax bill. If he continues living in his home country, which would be a cost-efficient structure to eliminate his tax burden altogether? Would it work the US LLC + Bahamas Trust? Or better a UK LLP? Is this possible without living his home country? Thanks

*leaving his home country

@scorps not a good idea if you ask me.

@maxsuur Hmmmm. The US LLC owned by a Bahamas trust would work to eliminate US taxes while at the same time offering to the client US banking. However, since I wrote the book I have discovered another option: A Georgian LLC registered as a 'virtual IT trade zone' company. A terrible name but a very good exemption from taxes. In Georgia you can set up a LLC and the standard tax rate is 15%. Georgia recently adopted the Estonian model so the tax is only collected when profits are distributed. However, the above exemption provides a 100% exclusion for all income earned from non-Georgian IT income. So a Georgian LLC registered for this exemption may be ideal for a German selling digital products on the internet. The US LLC may still be handy to gain access to US banking and markets? Also, taxes may be due in Germany when you "repatriate" the funds.

Let's see, I guess that for the german government, any income generated outside the country by an entity whose ultimate beneficial owner is a german citizen and resident, is taxable income whether repatriated or not. I also wonder if there is this resignation mechanism in place in the same fashion as the Bahamas Trust for the Georgian LLC "IT virtual zone" you mention

So, if you effectively are not the UBO of the US LLC + Bahamian trust, you owe no taxes despite you managing it?

@alexanderhay:

I am not sure that is true.

If you are not the Trustee, Grantor, or Beneficiary of the trust, but just an officer of a foreign company that does no business in Germany, what is the interest or jurisdiction of Germany? I think you are working too hard to do their job.

As for the issue of manager, no I will owe no taxes because the entity is a taxable entity separate apart from me. And from you. I would contact German tax attorney. I don't think you have it right. But I am no expert on German tax law. I only know if you do it correctly you will only owe taxes when you actually receive funds as either profit distribution or as a salary.

Interesting stuff @alexanderhay

Regarding the Bahamas Trust, there is one thing It is not clear to me. Who is the settlor, protector and beneficiary establishing the trust? Could it be anyone you wish or is it someone usually appointed by the Bahamas?

and is this person the one opening the bank account in the USA for that combo you mentioned in your book?

Came across this website that may be of use if your country is part of CRS http://www.the-best-of-both-worlds.com/trust-holding.html

Another on nominees http://www.the-best-of-both-worlds.com/nominee-sham.html

Incredibly complex stuff @scorps

Agree. Have been re-reading it a couple of times to grasp pieces of it. But still useful to consider if and when you plan to setup a structure.

Agreed

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wow, very hard to understand, I'm just glad Thailand is not in the scheme (yet).

Ya, like Simon said, the best method is to move to a low tax jurisdiction.

Or no tax jurisdiction

That also brings peace of mind which is priceless

So true!!

@scorps , I was told not to apply for an off-shore tax status for my HK business (meaning I pay 0% tax) as my business tax status may then default back to my home country because of the CRS. I don't know very much about the CRS, but by moving to a no tax jurisdiction, would one not default back to their home country as a result of the CRS?

I'm not a CRS or tax expert but CRS may report in both jurisdictions but that doesn't mean you will be taxed in both. You will have to check how residency is defined for a business in each country. I.e. Place of management, place of incorporation, etc. If you are sure your business can be considered resident in the offshore jurisdiction, then make sure you take the correct steps to clearly prove the tax officials that your company is no longer resident by changing the addresses with your banks. My advice would be to speak to a tax official in HK, ask them what steps you need to take to show your business is no longer resident and do the same with the banks.

Check point 2 on this page: http://www.the-best-of-both-worlds.com/previous-residencies.html

@harvie

@scorps thanks, now my mind is fully blown :smile:

:slightly_smiling_face:

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this seems to be relatively new. Non residents that have a US LLC need to watch out for this: http://www.internationallawoffice.com/Newsletters/Offshore-Services/USA/Kozusko-Harris-Duncan/US-LLC-owned-by-non-US-person-has-US-reporting-obligation-from-calendar-year-2017

wow!! ?thanks for sharing this @tatelev ?.this is indeed new?and to think I monitor the IRS activities regularly?will investigate further?thanks again.

Here?s a further description as well? https://www.usa-corporate.com/blog/new-rules-llcs-for-foreigners/

"The new regulations do NOT create a new tax obligation. Single member LLCs remain disregarded for income tax purposes. Form 5472 is an Information return for tax purposes, and as such is not publicly available."

and here?s the nasty part? :disappointed: "The penalty for failure to file form 5472 on a timely basis is $10,000. If the form is submitted on time but is incomplete or inaccurate, it is considered to be late and subject to the $10,000 penalty."

Hmm..it doesn?t seem all that bad?here are the rules?and their are exceptions?but still?it will present so much hassle and less privacy.. :disappointed: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i5472.pdf

Gone are the days of offshore haven USA?well?it was good while it lasted...

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Anyone would suggest general structures for asset protection? (like separating assets and liabilities in different entities etc.)

I save a lot of money each month and spend very little. I have accounts in THB, SGD, GBP, AUD (personal) and a business account in USD. Is there any benefit to me holding a great deal in any of the above? Because I can't, I feel I should be investing around 70-80% of my savings into investments/gold/silver and keep 10-20% for living. Just wondering what people are doing with their leftover salary, how much do you keep in currency?

Something I learned from "the permanent portfolio" book inspired by Harry Browne

Divide your "leftover" in 4 equal parts, 1/4 in cash, 1/4 invested in the stock market, 1/4 in gold, 1/4 bonds

This approach has survived the test of time giving positive returns over the last decades

One thing I find interesting about PP is the gold component - ETF gold or physical

1/4 of your portfolio in physical becomes.... significant

I know it can be stored in facilities eg: Singapore, but that comes at a cost (negative returns if it retains value)

Thanks @maxsuur I'll look into that book. @jase significant in what sense?

$1000000 in assets, $250k of gold

okay, gotcha! :smile:

You can also diversify purchasing land or cash-flow businesses, but as a general rule.. it does not get any simpler than that :)

Buying gold at some points could prove historically risky?

@philippe uploaded a file: https://freedomsurfer.slack.com/files/philippe/F40KMAUS0/pasted_image_at_2017_02_03_06_50_pm.png

Some people may have been down for 25 years? ^^

I quite like this: https://plainenglishfinance.co.uk/learn/keeping-it-simple-part-5-why-you-need-to-own-gold/

Prefer to buy gold stocks instead of Gold, much higher returns

Look at Goldcorp and Integra Gold corp share prices last month:)

Hey @danz , but the whole financial system blows up, and you got to purchase some physical gold, you have something of value you can always exchange for something of value: land, food, etc

Hence, "the assetsprotection" name of this channel

I know, it?s more stable. Just for better returns in shorter time it?s interesting.

Core 4 can be an alternative for those that want a passive portfolio and are reluctant to own gold https://www.bogleheads.org/blog/core-four-portfolios/

danz: more liquid too I guess

maxsuur: you cannot eat gold hehe

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Unless they are "golden nuggets"

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how/where do you buy physical gold and how to make sure it's legit? probably very stupid question, but I'm new to this world :neutral_face:

I use Bullion Vault but you can also check out bullionbypost

does anyone know if you can buy gold via PayPal? I've got a lot of USD PayPal (UK account) and want to get rid of it without sending it to my UK bank.

You can buy gold via Paypal: http://www.jmbullion.com/

It appears HK banks let you invest in gold as part of the ebanking system

I have no experience with it though

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Hello. Looking at the five flags theory - is there any reason that buisiness base and asset base should be in different countries? I am considering a US LLC for my consulting business, as well as investment business. Is there any reason not to keep assets in the US as well?

Depending how your assets are held, for non resident aliens there is an inheritance tax up to 40%.

Okay, so U.S. would only be a bad choice after I die :stuck_out_tongue: ?

Okay - what about moving assets out of the U.S.? Once I start preparing for my death :slightly_smiling_face:. As a non-resident alient is there a tax for moving assets out?

I believe the U.S. has taxes for everything?lols! :joy:

Here?s something from western union?should give you an idea more or less.. http://onlinefx.westernunion.com/Learning-Center/Personal/tax-considerations-when-sending-money-overseas-to-family

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Any ideas what I should throw some Low yielding Realestate and metal storage under? I wish to shift it to a holding structure.

Needs a bank account to receive profits from the real estate.

Is it more sensible to use something in the US/UK/CAD?

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Some bad news for those who think Nevada is some sort of Magical Talisman against creditors: "This Opinion once again illustrates, as have so many similar opinions before it, that it is not nearly enough that a person set up a labyrinth of legal structures to protect themselves, but that for the legal structures to hold up against creditors they must be respected as such. Here, the debtor set up a complicated structure that might normally have put off creditors, but then treated the structure willy-nilly, transferred assets around with little or no purpose or documentation, and then also -- the Mortal Sin in creditor-debtor law from time immemorial -- personally used and benefitted from the very assets that he claimed were not his. We also again see the implicit application of the ancient legal maxim of delicatus debitor est odiosus in lege, which is translated as "the extravagant debtor is condemned in the eyes of the law". In other words, a debtor who continues to live a wealthy lifestyle should get no sympathy from the court. So it is here, another case where the debtor claims that he has no money with which to pay their creditors, but maintains a wealthy lifestyle including the use of residences in both in Las Vegas and Southern California. Is it really any wonder that the courts frequently go out of their way to slam such debtors? Not paying one's debtors while living it up is not only flipping The Bird to creditors, but is also doing the same thing to the Court which has an interest in seeing that judgments are enforced. Why do debtors have such a hard time seeing that? The problem is fundamentally one of clients (1) having some common sense and knowing when they should live an austere lifestyle, and (2) being able to actually follow the legal structure that was created for them. An attorney can create the very best asset protection structure for a client, but if the client then starts ignoring the structure and treating all the assets as his own, then good luck defending that." Another problem with Nevada noted in the article: Nevada has a very thin record of court rulings compared with other states, and as a result tends to favor California law in the absence of Nevada decisions. This is never a good thing. https://www.forbes.com/sites/jayadkisson/2017/06/11/alter-ego-cuts-a-broad-swath-against-nevada-entities-and-trusts-in-transfirst/#67d393ccd607

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I'm looking to invest in some precious metals through an online platform over the coming months to withdraw it later and stick it in a safety deposit box in Singapore. I obviously want to minimise costs of the temporary storage and withdrawal fees, whilst still being able to buy at the most suitable times from abroad (so online). I'm currently looking at bullionstar but wondered if you guys had any good alternatives or a different approach to this altogether?

I've had a good experience with bullionstar, buying online and than walking in and picking it up

bullionvault is awesome.

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I invest gold with bullionvault 6 months ago they seems to be serious

Storage in Singapore

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Maaan, where the f do you put your money if you want it to grow/generate income

Depends on what you want back?

If you want to beat inflation and still want some liquidity shares/short term bonds are good

But if you want to generate income you?ll need to be more actively involved and have a stomach for increased risks.

I think passive income is a complete fallacy.

Bitcoin is pretty passive ;)

shares/bonds/gold/silver/cyrpto is how I do it

Bitcoin being passive is like saying cash is passive IMO. So many speculators out there at the moment.

@johncitizen where are you buying short term bonds that beat inflation? Emerging market? Corporate bonds?

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I?m still not convinced bitcoin will keep going up. Happy to have cashed out everything for the time being.

@johncitizen not that I believe that it is over (anymore) but it is prudent to take chips off the table from time to time. Selling IS a skill.

@stolzlos moved my money into cash assets while I wait.

I'm moving towards cashflowing stocks. I was pessimistic on Australia (having left) and I'd steer clear of anything real estate related (including financials), but there are some good buys down there. P/Es are low on a global standard

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I'm a Monaco resident looking to buy some property / assets in the US, whats the best way to approach this? I don't want the assets to be attached to my personal name

The house I want to buy is in Cali,

@haralabob2 this lawyer seems to have a lot of info about non residents owning US real estate

@mikeseo Its almost always better to use an LLC, but it does depend upon the laws of your home country.

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does anybody here have trusts/corporatoions setup that hold assets?

im just starting to look into this

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J.J. Luna's books are full of those tales

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Does anyone have experience with setting up a Cypriot trust? What are the costs like? And is there any specific trust agency that you would recommend (or avoid)? Thanks!

Avoid mosfon ;)

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Any advice on the best structure for several individuals to enter into an investment as a consortium. I was considering something simple like a unit trust, but for multiple investments over time where persons may or may not wish to enter into certain investments it may be too complicated to manage under a unit trust?

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@johncitizen A simple option is setting up a tax efficient and low cost entity, and doing the investment per project basis. You can create segregated accounts for each project. This depends on your relationship with your investors, that is. It's a less formal structure,

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Anyone here use Silver Bullion and storing their metal at the Safe House in SG?

Good or bad experiences?

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Overall good. Safe & secure being in SG.

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I'm sitting on Singapore dollars and learned today that banks there insured to S$75000 dollars, almost half those in the UK/EU. I wanted to look into options to diversify savings. I spend half the year in the UK/ EU so was thinking of transferring some into pounds/euros into a new bank, I'm not interested in crypto. My original idea was to wait for house prices to go down but was wondering what other options were out there in the interim, instead of it all sat in one account.

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@greenard23 gold seems like the better option. I would not want to hold GBP right now (I'm from the UK)

@greenard23 you should also look at the solvency of the bank and the solvency of the regulatory for the country you are thinking or holding cash in. For example, if you were holding cash in the US I wouldn't bet on the FDIC bailing it out for you.

@harvie Any recommended places to buy precious metals? I'm always paranoid I'm going to be sold the same piece that 100 other people have. I was just thinking of getting GBP as I can capitalise on the exchange rate, and will always be able to use pounds when I'm back home/ a property further down the line/ exchange back at a later date. @burrup.lambert very good point, but I struggled to find these stats. I actually bank with CIMB which could be good or bad depending on how you look at it...

Can you just get a multi currency account at a bank you already have an account with?

@greenard23 if you think 75000 SGD insurance is low, spare a thought for us poor kiwis. There's $0 insurance in the banking sector and bail-in is explicitly written into central banking policy. Moving money out ASAP before the housing bubble pops

@burrup.lambert I'd rather move it with transferwise so I spread my bets a bit with banks and countries. @me1892 that's savage

@greenard23 You'd think there'd be a furore about it but 99% of the country doesn't really save at all - anyone making money goes all in on real estate. It's a crazy cycle Do you rate CIMB? Deciding on which MY bank to go with at the minute

Yeah, unfortunately, I can't even consider real estate until the possible recession hits and prices go down, so just trying to do what I can to safeguard my savings. CIMB has been fine to date free withdrawals in most of South East Asia. MY bank?

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Malaysian bank

@greenard23 http://bullionvault.com are trusted and they will send it to your address (fees apply), or you can just buy gold and hold it somewhere safe

@greenard23 Silver Bullion in Singapore.

@greenard23 I agree with Krapen, Silver Bullion in Singapore, but you will need to own a minimum of 5-10k USD for them to store it. Ie monster box of silver ounce coins. Or 3-10 ounces of gold from memory.

any reason to choose Silver Bullion over Bullion Star?

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I can think of a few in favour of SilverBullion: 1. SovereignMan members get a storage discount 2. They offer P2P loans 3. They do more than just Gold/Silver, they do Cobalt, Nickels, Platnium and Palladium 4. They use DUX testing 5. They're insurance covers third party thefts, inside jobs and unknown cause losses DYOR.

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Anyone here have a family and live remotely/as an expat with assets in multiple countries? What do you have for a will? How will you pass on your assets to family members after you die?

Am I wrong in thinking that a trust might be best? Then all that changes is the beneficiary of the trust..

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@jase In that situation I think a trust would be best but still keep a will locally in the country of your family instructing that they take ownership of the will

Also in which ever country you establish the trust

For financial assets, you can also sign a "beneficiary designation form" with each bank / broker. For example: https://ndcdyn.interactivebrokers.com/Universal/servlet/Registration.formSampleView?file=TODBeneficiaryDistribution.jsp

Good info, thanks @simon @johncitizen

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@greenard23 if you want an alternatives to real estate, have you considered holiday resorts with guaranteed returns and buyback end of term? this particular developer transacts in SGD and has projects all over SE asia and has paid out consistently for the past 10 years. guaranteed returns are 9% net per annum. https://www.newnordicgroup.com/investments let me know if u need more info, i work for the Philippine team

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does anyone here have a nevis multiform foundation?

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in this environment, sooner or later banks will blow up or get temporarily incapacitated

it may be a good idea to verify the liquidity or solvency of your bank

@simon in your effort to create your banking list it may be an interesting feature to add *stability*

@stolzlos It?s also a good idea for now to spread your funds across multiple banks, currencies and jurisdictions.

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@simon How would you do that? 1 bank in Europe , one in USA, one in Asia.... which currencies? Isn?t USD the stronger?

@omocha_10 Yes, banks in multiple countries. Ideally, strong banks with healthy balance sheets. You can open USD accounts at most banks globally but I?d recommend diversifying at least to a certain degree (EUR, JPY, CNY, SGD etc).

@simon Money in bank accounts aren?t backed by the US gov up to 500 or 750k? How do you check the liquidity and solvency of a bank?

I wouldn?t rely on government guarantees, especially for larger banks. Even if you eventually get your money back, it could be months / years.

Most central banks run stress tests on a regular basis, you can review the results to see how solid each bank is

+ physical gold and btc

FDIC is up to 250k I think and probably doesn?t extend to USD held in foreign banks

@simon is right. There are at least 4 problems with gov guarantees. 1. *If:* A concentrated issue may make the backstop (ex. FDIC) itself go belly up. You may not see a dime. 2. *When:* Depending on the situation it could take years. Do not forget debt seniority, litigation hell, etc. 3. *How much:* A bail-in is a strategy that is getting more and more popular. Expect at 30% haircut or more. 4. *What:* A massive bailout of the banks so that they are able to return money may cause your currency to half in the blink of an eye

In regard to diversification, the major reason for USD strength and non-USD weakness is the international outstanding dollar denominated debt.

Since so many countries have too much debt in USD they scramble to get dollars and in the process sell their own currency. See Turkey and Mexico which lead the bunch and currency-wise are likely to blow up.

Of course then there is also economic reasons like Australia and New Zealand's dependency of trade with China

Or the EU just being a plain mess with a banking system warping out of existence

Or Canada having a oil&gas&mining industry turning into vapor ware combined with the most leveraged real estate market in the world

if you think about this mess, Gold & cryptos become very attractive (@mikeseo). Not just yet but they will have their time in the sun.

in regard to what banks are safe and not there is in my opinion 3 ways: 1. Check the balance sheets. Especially debt compared to assets and especially cash (and equivalents). But I know that this is a big effort. 2. Go for a full reserve bank (no fractional lending). Expensive but safe because every dollar can be pulled and the bank will stand (ex. Europac but there are others) 3. Look at the stock chart. All banks below their 2008 lows are toast by definition. They will not survive. All close are suspicious. Go for banks above their 2008 highs. (ex. JPM)

well somebody dumped a lot of gold last few days http://prntscr.com/rg82ko

would you buy now?

@But if investments are in assets like funds, stocks, bonds, ETF, index funds, I the bank bankrupt, you still get your assets. At least that was what happened for investors in Lehman in 2008.

Just an example I picked at random

HSBC holds the assets. If they go under your claims (shares) become worthless, or part of a bankruptcy process.

There is a reason that most ETFs are so cheap and some are expensive. The fineprint matters.

Exactly why it's prefferable to hold physical precious metals, and not a precious metals ETF

Hi all, this is quite timely as I want to move some assets around. I bank with CIMB in Singapore and also have some UK accounts, and I can potentially keep my N26 account which is German. I?m just sitting on SGD and GPB currently. It?s come to my attention that Singapore only insure up to 40k sterling, which makes me uncomfortable. So I?m going to start spreading out funds above 40k in keeping with what Simon mentioned, which will entail having a few dif accounts in different jurisdictions with different currencies. I would like to diversify with metals, index funds, Etf?s ( Ftse and S and P when it goes down more) but I?m still researching and dont want to rush it. Ideally I would like to get my first home, but it?s anyones guess how 2021/22 will be looking, which is when I plan to look into one on the dip. So right now I just want to safeguard what I have. @stolzlos your point 3 as of right now or ongoing? I used https://simplywall.st/ (which may not be any good) and although it shows CIMB holdings health to be worse, the debt to asset ratio was lower than most banks I compared it to. Is there an easy way to test the banks health for a novice? I dont really have much choice but to just sit on cash and hope the banks dont go belly up. Tips appreciated.

Just to give some context

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@greenard23 With regards to banking, have several bank accounts in different jurisdictions to hedge risk.

@greenard23 You can see where it broke. I would say that it is not stellar but still decent. After 2007 it made new highs but is unfortunately already below its 2007 high. It is still yet above its 2007 lows which is really important. If that changes, start looking for alternatives.

@greenard23 out of curiosity I double checked something because the chart of this bank looked so familiar. I overlayed it with Copper in USD. Stunning correlation since 2009

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I?ve seen a re bound in share price this am, Singapore seem to have the virus under control, not that it matters, when you lend money out worldwide. I?ve been following advice and been setting up a few banks, in dif places slowly. Does potential hyper inflation not concern anyone? Metals seem hard to get and crypto is too volatile/ I have some from long ago.

Does anyone have any experience or opinions on premium bonds? I?m not bothered about no interest. https://www.nsandi.com/premium-bonds

Yes. Premium bonds you just park it and leave it. Hope that HMT doesn't go bust. :stuck_out_tongue:

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Does anyone know what would be the best to have in times like this? GBP, USD or EUR

Why not all?

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@simon do you have metals, shares, crypto etc... or just as you mention dif currencies in dif banks?

At the moment I'm holding mostly cash, in different currencies and banks. I was lucky to get out in Feb before the ball dropped, with most of the profits I accumulated during the past few years intact.

Nice I will follow suit, as holding out for some real estate next year and metals everyone is going into now, so premiums are silly? I?d never heard of him before but this Harry Dent chap seemed to think we could see an 80% drop in the stock market, I?m not sure if anyone else is familiar with his work or past predictions. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCDncXO7s4U

funny, I just watched that video an hour ago. Worth watching.

There is a great book I recommend called; The Black Swan by Nassim Nicholas Taleb

Very poor advice if he?s telling people to go into bonds

@bierlingm Taleb said that the corona is not a black swam, because a pandemic was on the cards.

Would like to see their income statement pre corona, now, and in one year.... According the information I have, corona will finish with a vaccine, or before by releasing all from the quarantine except the people in risk. So one way or another it will go away. I think the point is to see how low the markets can go.

I guess best option now is diversification.

@harvie I invest (and trade) in untreated gemstones (ruby, sapphires, tourmalines, but NOT white diamonds). They are a truly rare material and are looking at a natural scarcity for the unforeseeable future. Over the last century most gems out there have been colored artificially by traders (not mentioning the fact, however), but recently the public has become aware of the cheat. So, the % of high-income buyers who want natural colored gems are in sharp increase while the natural supply has and will remain the same (only about 5% of all gems are untreated). Already, high-end jewelry buyer pay 300%-400% premium for untreated gems. This has been going on since I'm in the trade (near 20 years), every year prices for untreated rubies double. I put every cent leftover in new gems. VERY mobile asset (pockets in any jacket fill $10m easily), tax free, zero maintenance, oh, and beautiful, too. Of course, you have to consider a sales channel but with several e-auction platforms already in action, this shouldn't be a problem in a digital future. You must do some research, of course, as always.

Yeah I tried researching those and found that a bit strange. tbf I know nothing about them, only UK premium bonds that are a dif kettle of fish.

Global PM shortage is incredible.

Local dealers here have none.

checked US

http://GoldSilver.com: Silver and Gold gone for months

Any currency crisis in the next 3 months and latecomers are caught pants down.

I think the last time that happened globally was in 1968 when the London Gold Pool collapsed.

What do you suggest if you cant get PM?s?

Well, you still have some ETFs that you can buy

but some will go bankrupt also. Read the fine print. Compare the fact sheets.

or mining stocks of course but they are a double edged sword

futures better than ETFs

true, but not everybody is comfortable with futures

ABC bullion in Australia still has a small amount of Gold coins without crazy premiums. But almost everything is sold out everywhere. Some of the silver coin premiums I've seen are huge.

Yeah gold bars are like plus 6%, not bad vs silver etc..

I would love it if the table indicated *cash* as well. The invisible second best performer.

Treasury bonds way up against either cash or gold in that period

ok, third best :wink:

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Corporate Socialism: The Government is Bailing Out Investors & Managers Not You https://medium.com/incerto/corporate-socialism-the-government-is-bailing-out-investors-managers-not-you-3b31a67bff4a

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gold on the way to make new highs (in USD). Money printing galore and most of the people do not have the slightest clue of what is going on as all coverage still focuses on the virus.

Well, I assume that even without virus the amount of people interested would be the same though.

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@stolzlos What do you mean buy ?what is going on?? The printing?

yes, and of course what they do with the money. Bailing out corporations left and right by buying their bonds and consequently keeping failed managements alive while additionally saving investors, hedge funds, etc. from deserved ruin . And since yesterday the fed started to buy even *junk* bonds.

@stolzlos But they been doing this for a long time, specially since 2009. Why would this time this procedure would not work out? I mean from the perspective of a retail investor. I?m not talking about ethics here. I?m not a pro, but seems to me that right now best option is to diversify into assets(stocks, bonds, criptos, bonds, different currencies, real state, personal business).

@omocha_10 yes, I you are right. Its been done for a long time and done everywhere. What is different is the scale. Clearly we are seeing the limits of what can be done (centralbank wise) trying to prevent the inevitable, prolonging the situation and ensuring that the downturn is going to be that much worse.

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last time they did so many rounds of QE, which is dwarfed by what's happening now, gold hit an all time high in USD. It's at a fresh ATH in most currencies other than USD right now

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Anybody know anything about TIPS (Treasury Inflation Protected Securities) and if they're sufficient in a time like this to protect against inflation?

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@noahlibbyhaines TIPS are not a retail instrument, esp now that real rates are negative. May as well store your money under your mattress.

@ivo Not sure I follow you. TIPS can be purchased by individuals via treasury-direct, and they protect against some forms of inflation unlike money under a mattress. Whether they're a good idea or not is another matter, but buying tips is nothing like holding cash.

@noahlibbyhaines Have you checked the TIPS yield recently?

And to elaborate my previous point: Almost the entire TIPS curve has negative carry. Now that NIRP has come to the US and the FED has essentially taken over the bond market there is no point in holding them unless you have a fiduciary duty to do so or want to speculate on even more negative rates.

@ivo I realize that there is a negative yield, but that doesn't mean they aren't useful as a hedge against inflation. TIPS also yielded 9% in 2019 according to https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/092215/top-5-tips-etfs.asp, and there are ways to get TIPS exposure without purchasing direct (eg through an ETF) so the current yield is not the end-all-be-all. I don't disagree with your point about negative yields, I just think you may not be considering all the factors motivating my interest in TIPS. The current fed funds rate is not negative, so I'm genuinely confused about why you're declaring "NIRP has come to the US" unless you're referring to other monetary policy. I'm in the process of selling off my real estate and will be heavily in cash, which is probably a good place to be, but it would be nice to have some relatively liquid hedge against inflation as part of my portfolio. If you have suggestions other than TIPS, I'd love to hear them. You seem to know what you're talking about.

Hi @noahlibbyhaines , I am not a pro investor, and I am not offering advice, but I?ll share my thoughts in this. Right now I believe there is a lot of uncertainty. So maybe to hedge against inflation, the best bet is to diversify between different assets. Which is the benchmark that TIPS use as reference? Which is your reference?(not asking for an answer)

Here is an interesting gold program at Standard Charter in Singapore, but is there a disadvantage or danger of this compared to owning gold bullion in say Bullionstar in Singapore https://www.sc.com/bn/invest/gold-premium-currency-investment.html

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The social distancing situation prevents late comers like me to go rush into multiple banks to open accounts. For the time being, would you consider virtual wallets like Revolut, Uphold, Sable, Monese... a decent way to emulate bank/jurisdiction diversification?! Revolut in the UK, Uphold in the US, I also heard of ZA in H-K... Most of them practice non-fractional reserves and hold cash for you... Any thoughts/warnings/advices?!

@jonrodd, You may treat those as a temporary current account. Funds kept on those are not safe when compared to a traditional bank with deposit protection.

Why?

They comply with the same regulations and do not lend more money than they actually hold

They even get the same government "guarantees" if ever you trust those

I have hard time to see the catch except mismanagement maybe

You think cash is safer in an institution with fractional reserves subject to bank runs??

@jonrodd Something to consider with virtual banks is that many only accept residents (and enforce it by doing a credit check / local ID check). That's certainly the case with ZA and all other HK virtual banks, most US virtual banks, most Canadian virtual banks etc.

The EU virtual banks are the easiest to open accounts with (N26, Bunq etc).

You are correct. My question was more geared towards their capacity to survive harsh recession times like the one we should brace for...? Precisely, the systemic collapse of institutional banks is only a matter of weeks/days IMHO. So, is it better to hold money on Deutcshe Bank, Bank of America, Société Générale right now?! Or is Uphold a smarter idea?!

A fintech has to keep deposits somewhere and that somewhere is usually a major bank. This exposes the fintech to even more risk than other customer of the major bank in case it went bust as deposit protection, in most cases, will only apply once (and not to each of the fintech's customers).

With that said, it's mostly theoretical at this point as I doubt any government is going to let a major bank collapse (especially one that is as vital to the economy as Bank of America or Societe Generale).

@jonrodd, If you are thinking about failure of banks, invest in Physical Gold or Land. Also why do you think an EMI is more safer than banks? EPassporte, Payza, Liberty Reserve, Epayments, Leupay, Mistertango many failed or started screwing customers.

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I?ve found Starling to be really decent, you can hold pounds and euros.

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Regarding gold futures vs ETF discussion. I am absolutely not sure about this, but apparently comex has only fractional reserves of the gold traded at any moment in time (from what I understand it has to do with the liquidity being switched around a bunch of custodians or something?). In the case of a run on USD and huge demand for gold, there could happen a scenario where futures price moons but theres not even any gold to ship. Whereas when it comes to the big ETFs like GLD, I asssume there's a good chance in case of insolvency that the gov would bail out the custodians.

In case of Futures, to be possible to take a position (either short or long) someone else has to take a position in the opposite direction. This is all managed in a clearing house within the organized market. So, for someone to take a crazy big position on Futures, there must be a counterpart. If not, the clearing house won't permit to take the position.

I first saw it brought up here in the "Comex futures are dangerous" section

In these paper gold conspiracy theories there seems to be a lot of bias, but the reasoning seemed pretty good

Is there a question in there?

Not explicitly

looking for someone to tell me im an idiot and why

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@oli_rod 95% of my gold is physical coins and bars stashed under my bed, for longer term insurance/safety. 5% is in miner stocks, for shorter term/trading. I think it's like bitcoin, a big benefit is you can remove counter party risk.

How do you make sure to protect your gold from theft or fire? I've been looking into storing my own gold, but in the event the house burns down, I'm not sure what would happen. Fire proof safes only guarantee a certain amount of minutes withstanding fire from what I've heard.

hide it and store it in more than 1 location?

I don't know m,an. In your life, how many times have you had your house burned down? That has never happened to me. Most likely it can get stolen or something. Just break the wall, put there and cover. I think there was a JJLuna's book on the topic. Or in multiple locations as @mikeseo said.

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True, it is a pretty low risk. Depending on how much you have, an insurance policy may or may not cover it too

Trademarks/Patents : Hi guys, how do you protect your brands/products names/designs? I have Chinese copycats of my products popping up in Wish and AliExpress. Thanks for any knowledgeable advices!

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Can a US LLC hold shares and receive distributions from non US companies? What about real estate?

@bountybairn Sure although if it is owned by a non-US resident it won?t be eligible for treaty benefits (in case you were planning to use US tax treaties).

@simon thanks, I've some changes in business estate etc and looking to review tax situation Moving my 'future' money and cashflow generating cash into cashflowing real estate, so was looking to let this flow in the most efficient way. I guess I could have a partner in the LLC which is from a haven, allocating the profits to a non taxable entity?

To complete the picture I have a Wyoming LLC, 3 UK Ltds and considering a UK LLP so that I can get around benefit in kind charges for use of company assets (cars etc), posted in #residency also as I am maybe able to leave the UK now and be regarded non dom

Real estate gains (rental income and capital gains) are usually taxed in the origin country (where the properties are located), regardless of where you live (or where you setup your holding company). For example, rental income from a UK property will be taxed in the UK even if you are a non-resident (you?ll have to file a self-assessment return to report the income, or appoint a withholding agent). As long as you reside (or your holding company) in a country with a lower tax rate, you are unlikely to pay additional tax on your real estate income.

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Thanks @simon

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Not sure where to post this - I?m self employed and live in Asia, I own a house in the UK (no mortgage), and I want to look into purchasing a home in Portugal. Anyone know the path of least resistance? My idea is to put down a deposit and use my UK property as collateral for a loan/mortgage, I may not necessarily be a resident of Portugal initially, which nullifies getting a local mortgage I guess.

can you just get a loan on your UK house and than use that cash to buy the house in PT? In the US there is something called HELOC, home equity line of credit.

@greenard23 Hi, Gio, I had a look into investing in PT. When I contacted the banks they told me you need a downpayment of 15/20% and that the loan conditions are based on proof of past and future income. That was my experience with Millenium bank.

Wondering if a loan will have outrageous interest rates @mikeseo thanks @omocha_10 I have the deposit as it?s not a mega expensive flat I?m looking for. Guess it?s more likely I get a mortgage from the UK than Portugal as that is where my first property is and where I?m a citizen, all be it an expat.

Resident loans @ 10% deposit. Non-resident loans @ 30 to 40% deposit. 15/20% would be very low for a non-resident, I?ve never heard of that but maybe Millenium is getting aggressive. Interest rates are fairly high, between 3% and 5% (higher for non-residents generally). Then add about 6-10% of purchase price for various fees and taxes. You need proof of income, indeed, and generally banks won?t lend you money for a property outside the country of the bank, with some rare exceptions so best bet may be to stick to Portuguese banks.

Thanks for the feedback, I?m hoping if I use my UK house as collateral it could help matters, as I?m freelance and wage varies somewhat, and wont be a Portuguese resident off the bat, so I may struggle with any kind of Portuguese mortgage ? Might pop to Santander in the UK as they also operate in Portugal I believe.

@greenard23 Can you remortgage your UK property? That would probably be easier than to get a mortgage for an overseas property.

Hi Simon, this is what I want to find out when I?m back in the UK. Hopefully they should be easier going if I ask for less than what my property is worth, even if I live out the country and work freelance.

I?d advise not to thell them in the UK that it?s to purchase another property, just be vague about plans and just need to raise the cash for various purposes. And yes Santander is a good call

(meaning UK would be fine with a uk property not so much with a foreign one in my experience)

Cheers.. I will go have a chat with them.

re mortgage calculators dont work the best in my predicament so best face to face.

May I ask about offshore company setup providers here? I am considering setting up an offshore company. And then I am looking for providers. I think http://offshoreincoporate.com may be good because they have many acknowledge of the structure for reducing tax. Has Anyone of this member used them? https://offshoreincorporate.com/

Why not WY LLC or U.K. Llp? Cheaper and 0 tax for non residents. Talk to Simon

Thanks. I think it is not easy for a US LLC to open a forex account outside the US. I am an FX trader.

Check out trade zero . Allows non US citizens to trade

Thanks. I will check out Trade Zero.

Aside from precious metals, real estate and bitcoin, what else is in peoples portfolio. Does anyone have an experience with inflation indexed bonds?

Hello. Not sure if this is the right channel - but I am wondering if anyone here can point us in the direction of an expert in intellectual property, with a focus on the publishing industry. We help people record their life stories (mostly through books), and although most of our clients tend to do this for family and friends, we?ve been receiving increasing interest from individuals looking to publish for public dissemination. We?re interested in having a conversation with experts/lawyers that specialize in crafting these kinds of contracts (IP, Royalties, etc.), and with particular experience in the UK and US markets. Thanks.

Anyone in the know on Portuguese shell companies (maintenance fees, filing requirements, using them as holding companies, corporate tax and dividend tax, how to acquire them)?

Hey Toby. Why are you interested in Portuguese companies in particular?

Say you live in a low tax country and you have small interests in a few companies, plus retail investments that pay dividends. Rather than pay tax at 10-15%, you'd prefer to hold that income/profits in a holding company.

Where is a good place for that entity?

I know BVI can be an option but reputation seems to be an issue these days. I was reading about Labuan, is it an interesting location for something like this?

Hk? 0% tax when u distribute yourself dividends

Good point. I guess the offshore exemption is quite easy to achieve too as its not an active company.

I've been happily avoiding HK for a while due to the latest uncertainty, does anyone have a fresh perspective on this?

in May-June our Singapore accounting firm said that there were tons of entities migrating from HK to Singapore due to latest developments (they are servicing both these jurisdictions)

Which Singapore accounting firm and can you recommend them? @bobriakov.igor

it's http://sleek.sg/ - yes, experience with them was good, however eventually we retired our SG entity due to other reasons.

Speaking of holding companies, I was thinking about setting one up for international real estate. For ex: when buying property in a place like Malta that has no property taxes, but a 6% transfer tax (including inheritance transfers), I was thinking about using a holding company so that my heirs could inherit the holding company and not have to worry about transfer costs, etc.. Any recommendation for IBC's + bank accounts that could be used for such a purpose?

Yeah I am interested for a similar scenario. Simple asset transfer in the event of my death.

Singapore seems simultaneously expensive and a high tax rate (without a treaty) to consider.

This is why Labuan could be interesting. You can also bank in SG I have read.

Yes Labuan is a good option, I can attest to that since I have one

Why not an Estonian company?

@994kaloyan what would be the reporting / tax requirements for using an Estonian entity as a holding company (if you know)?

I've not heard of Labuan! Will do some studying..

As long as you don?t distribute any profits, you can accumulate money in the company tax free. You can pay yourself a salary tax free in Estonia, then you?d have to pay personal tax on that salary wherever your personal tax residency is set up.

Honestly I hadn't considered Estonia

Can do something similar with Singapore company

pay salary if you live in tax free country

SG seems expensive and high tax, no?

(subjective)

Estonia is 20% I think plus the vat etc

Singapore is 17% highest rate

But more than 5% tax for example

More deductions

OK, Labuan is 3%

Becomes interesting

Andorra has 2% but won't exist in a few years

Where did you read that Andorra holding will be 2%?

What makes these places better than say a 0% tax jurisdiction like the British Virgin Islands, access to bank accounts?

It will likely cease to be.

That's my angle @jason. Reputation and access to banks.

Thanks @jase, this kind of advice is exactly why I joined this group.

You don?t pay 20% tax in Estonia unless you distribute profits to yourself.

I don?t have experience with SG companies but depending on the type of business you run, accounting & auditing can be expensive if you have a large number of transactions.

@994kaloyan I thought "distributing any profits" means also paying yourself a salary.

It?s important to remember that holding companies are not subject to the same taxes as trading companies. For example, a holding company based in an EEA country will not pay any taxes on dividends received from companies it owns, if they are also located in EEA countries / countries with tax treaties providing exemptions.

No. It means distributing dividends.

HK is only good if you live here. 0% tax is not automatically and opening an account without visit is almost impossible

Living in HK is quite depressing now, although looking how other countries are managing COVID, seems I'll be better here. Also China is the only economy in the world that doesn't enters in recession this year.

HK Goverment by law have 0 debt so they hold huge amounts of dollar reserves. Effective tax is 8% bellow 240k USD profit per year and they keep pouring HKD to the economy via paying 9000k per month for each employee. If you are unemployed, you get nothing.

HK is much worse now than a year ago: rule or law, NSL, US new approach. But I still think is a good place and I hope China would pour money after they open the borders

How important is it to have a holding and an operating corporation? for example if I am buying stocks.. is there huge exposure to buy them through operating corporation? benefits: just simplifies everything.. make money and buy stocks. cons: if you get sued they can get the stocks too?

@buynps.org It?s not only about the risk of getting sued, it?s about other risks such as debt, taxes etc. It also makes things simpler in case you add / remove shareholders, sell the company etc.

Hi, Anyone knows a good set up for an EU national with a brokerage/investing account who needs to withdraw money from it on a monthly basis? Not very happy with the current set up. Considering moving to Malta/Paraguay/Bulgaria as a perpetual traveller. Where is the best place to hold the bokerage/investment account? Wyoming, UK? Thanks

you kind of mixed two things. First part is I believe personal taxation level from capital gains and by second, you meant that you want to have your assets owned by a corporate entity in jurisdiction where it will be safe, is that correct?

Thanks for your answer. What I am looking for is a set up where I can leverage my perpetual traveller lifestyle to ?optimize? taxes. What I am looking for is for a set up where: . I can pay minimum to no taxes, . Not have the need to live in the place or at least not more than 60 days .Not an expensive set up as I am not rich neither in net worth or income. .my plan would be to live out of my brokerage account withdrawing money from it, and if I?m successful, slowly get my monthly money out of internet business and stop or decrease the amount of money I withdraw from my brokerage account moat months. I would prefer Europe, as I hold and EU passport.

It will be hard to obtain tax residency anywhere without staying more than those 60d and/or make there some ties, like home or something. I mean, countries will of course take your money with great pleasure, but it's not that easy then to 'defend' in other tax jurisdictions, especially your home country, where you for sure have some ties... because that's what you want to achieve I assume (you didn't stated that). Why do you want to have a corporate brokerage account? Why not a personal one?

perpetual traveller is kind of a gray area and if you want to be the one and do everything legally and sleep without worries, I strongly advise you to make ties to any country that you really want to be considered as a tax resident

Thanks, yes, I know, I don?t live in my home country for more than 4 years, got no relevant ties, on my 2nd citizenship(EU) I never even lived there. So, if I am a perpetual traveller, I assume than having an address, bills etc, will be ok. Specially that I am a middle class person, I guess no state will loose time and resources to challenge me. So that?s why I think Ireland/UK/Malta/Georgia/Panama/Paraguay could be ok for me, even Bulgaria if taxes are just 10%. I don?t mind having a brokerage account under my name or inside a company, I just want to have the best set up I can get for my lifestyle and economic reality.

ok, so I assume you really don't have any significant ties to your home country, like family that you are visiting from time to time, ANY economic activity etc., so it will be fine for sure as you mentioned. Regarding taxes... if you don't really need a corporate entity then don't go for it. Adding unnecessary complexity is always bad. Especially when you mentioned you are middle class person, so costs are also important part of it :) You mentioned taxes... ok, but if you want to live from the brokerage account it depends if you want to trade and make gains from it (capital tax) or you want to receive dividends and live from it (dividend tax). Also, if you will do any activity besides already mentioned, you will have to consider paying normal PIT rates, so choose wisely. Everything depends on your total amounts made during a whole tax year. You mentioned something about Europe, but then you are thinking about Panama or Paraguay which are completely different timezones and world to be honest. If you want to perform trades or do something like that, you may also consider timezone which you will have to perform, as this may be an important factor. It's hard to answer clearly as you can see, you didn't mention many things, both: economic and non-economic and maybe you don't want to share them, it's ok, but then I can't tell anything more and maybe it's better to pay up to few hundreds someone, talk up to 1hour with him and find a solution, which will suit you, because right now it's only wild guessing. If you will be making money solely from trades you perform, there are actually few countries even in Europe, where capital gains are completely free from tax.

Thanks, are you an accountant or have some specialized knowledge? Yes I know about time zones, but it is not relevant as I will not spend much time in that country. Right now I am living out of my brokerage account, meaning savings/buy and hold long term/some swing trading. Eventually if I succeed, I would like to live out of internet bussiness like web sites, SM accounts and so on.

Yes, looks like paying for a consultation would be the way to go. But a few months ago had one with PWC and they passed me a budget of 11.000 euros, which feels unrealistic.... to my reality.

I'm not an accountant :slightly_smiling_face: ok, so you rely on trades, so it falls under capital tax category. I don't know every single country in Europe, but for example both Romania and Bulgaria have 10% capital tax rate, for personal income it is also 10% rate. `Eventually if I succeed, I would like to live out of internet bussiness like web sites, SM accounts and so on.` that's important, because it's completely different kind of income source than you've mentioned. You will need a business for this and then when you withdraw profit from it, it will be taxed at a normal, personal level. you can of course go lower than 10%, even in Europe, but that's more complex thing and will require more in-depth analysis and of course some more complex structure will have more maintenance costs and you probably want to avoid that, from what I understand. All I can say, from what you described, you should look for a professional help, not an advice over the Internet, especially if you are making some significant money already. Spending some part of your profit for a professional help will save you both time and probably money in the future + you will have some peace in your mind.

I don't think I can say anything more from that point. Sum up everything you told me, re-think what else you may want to add and really, go for an advise to some professional whom you will tell everything, also with proper amounts and he/she will give you a few options. More or less I gave you something, but I feel like you are also not sure how your structure, income sources etc. will look like, so it's hard to make further predictions for me :wink:

Thanks. I already paid professionals in the past and I am contacting others right now. And several did?t give me good information, so, reading and asking in forums with like minded people, definitively helps. But seems to only exist accountants that don?t understand the PT/DM lifestyle or the firms like PWC that charges too much for my personal reality. Thanks :pray:

first of all, it's extremely easy to do that and you're lucky because: 1. you have a EU passport 2. you can go and live anywhere you want in EU 3. you're making money "passively" as per a few key EU jurisdictions Ireland, Malta and UK come to mind. There's even more.

Ok, but how much costs to set up a non dom structure in Ireland or UK? Malta I believe you have to pay a minimum tax of 5k euro, rent a flat of a certain price.... Which other countries are like that? Georgia, Panama....

potentially 0 if that's what you want to accomplish. but every situation is different.

I?m not desperate for 0, but want to leverage the PT lifestyle to pay if possible under 10%

Have a look into Cyprus non-dom program too.

Asking for a friend: > Does anyone have a good lawyer in US? I need it from some issues with Payoneer and their jurisdiction is in Delaware. > > I did a transfer from one bank to another. Both saying they don?t have it. > > One side is saying: they send it > Other side is saying: they don?t received it

can't you request your (sending) bank to recall the wire?

@buynps.org How much time has passed since, sending the wire?

@stolzlos i think he had Payoneer and TransferWise as banks, both online.. both saying they don?t have it

@mb it must have been at least 3-6 months, what do you think?

That's definitely too long of a period to be in the range of 'might take a bit longer than usual'.

@mb yep.. that?s why he was looking for a lawyer

to push things forward

Can I attribute profits made in my Spanish SL (profits from property) company to my Estonian holding company? Normally an SL company has a profit tax of 15%. But though I could dodge that if my Estonian holding company owns the SL. Any thoughts or tax experience investing in property in the EEA?

I would also consider Cyprus or Malta. In Cyprus I think you only need to stay 60 days, but I am not 100% sure on that. Its a nice place, especially the Paphos area and 2 months should be easily possible to endure with the right girl near you :wink: I wouldn't want to spend 6 months there tough!

if there are ppl using robinhood, better withdraw some cash. There is a good chance that they collapse.

What is this based on?

because they can?t fund all the GME action?

If they do collapse accounts are insured up to $500,000

lawsuits, liquidity issues, customers running away

and you are right, accounts are insured

but nobody promises you when you get your money. Could take many years.

Yeah, in any case accounts are insured except for crypto

just don't count on insurance. Take some off the table (account). Just to be on the safe side.

Insurance, like that from the FDIC or in Robinhoods case, the SIPC, is only as good as the solvency of the government that backs it, which for the US, is not great. But history shows us that the Fed will continue to print into oblivion so you will probably be ok ;).

Any airtight solutions for protection of wealth from all things such as lawsuits, divorce etc? What's the general set up that guarantees money can't be accessed or claimed?

Spend it! :joy:

Anonymous LLCs I guess

If I understand correctly, order from best to not as good. 1. Foreign trust (Cook Islands or St Kitts and Nevis) 2. Foreign LLC 3. Domestic LLC Foreign trust is basically air tight. For anyone to come after you they have to physically go to Cook Islands (or Nevis) to fight it in court there. Plus I read there have been 0 successful attempts at someone claiming money (or say the service providers say). Unless you have substantial wealth, or risk, probably not worth it.

@burrup.lambert do foreign trusts cover things like divorce as well?

Or keep it simple, buy casino chips in Macau and store them in a safety deposit box in Hong Kong. If anyone asks, you got wiped out at the casino, the money is all gone.

No idea sorry!

Until they change the chips in Macau and you?re stuck with a bunch of worthless plastic :sob:

@buynps.org I have a friend going through a divorce in Australia right now. He has to disclose all of the bank accounts in his name as well as any businesses he owns. So I'm not sure how it would work with a trust.

@buynps.org They aren?t changed all that often in Macau, it?s unlikely you?d run into issue over a few months (it usually takes no more than a few months to finalise a divorce).

Generelly speaking what is your advice for marriage / building a family? Most woman dont feel comfortable starting a family without getting married. I am not comfortable sharing / losing half of my assets. Is there any smart trick to avoid any problems? Or would you say always say no to marriage?

Confront a lawyer and do a contract that she needs to sign and your problems are solved.

yep, get the pre-nup

pre-nups are worth less and less every year. Move to a developing country where the legal framework isnt as biased against men

Hey ya'll! I'm close to pulling the trigger on setting up a HK company as holding for my LLCs. Based on @simon's recommendation I reached out to accoplus. Raphael is a super friendly dude and I feel like I can trust him. Nonetheless wanted to get an idea about whether his fees are correct. I'm strongly considering the following set up: ? Company is subject to profit tax (8.25 % the first USD 250,000 then 16.5 %) ? Hong Kong Director with bank access (view or dual signatory) ? Office located within the Director business environment/activities and not at a Corporate Services Provider address Our subsidiaries are projected to make around 4.5M in profit this year so this feels like this is a reasonable choice. Costs are: First year USD 4400, Second year USD 1800 plus accounting and audit. PLUS, the Director fees USD 6000 per year, in such case a (Nominee) Director without particular TECH business profile acting along the shareholder whom will also hold a Director position. Would love to hear if someone else has experience with this and know if this is the right ballpark. I have a fee breakdown but don't want to put you guys through reading all of that. Cheers!

I am close to creating a Private Interest Foundation in Panama to achieve better asset protection. Interactive Brokers have confirmed that the foundation can have a brokerage account with them. The foundation will be shareholder of my corporations. The foundation will be investing mainly in pre-IPO shares in US tech companies looking to go public in the near future. I am wondering: Is it correct that if I (for whatever reason in the future) am unlucky and lose potential lawsuits in the US, then the creditors can't take the US assets owned by the foundation? (such as the US stocks held in a brokerage account with Interactive Brokers, or investments the foundation has made in US LLC's?) Do I need a bank account for the foundation? I am not able to travel at the moment, and I am not comfortable banking with the offshore banks that allow remote account opening. In general, I am not very comfortable with offshore accounts and want to avoid the hassle of opening in, for example, Singapore. Can I fund the foundation's brokerage account from my personal bank account? Can the foundation distribute to my personal bank account directly from its brokerage account? @simon I hope you may have some knowledge on this topic as well. Was about to ask you about this on Skype but thought it may benefit others to hear about it. Happy to hear from any of you if you know about this! :slightly_smiling_face:

Genius!

For my taste very overpriced. I incorporated my HK entity for 1,200 USD incle. Director and Address. Charging 6k USD for a director is bonkers. Which company fo you take to incorporate?

Why would you give the HK director bank access? Also, Banks in HK suck. Stay away from HSBC. Also, why do you pay tax at all? If I am not mistaken you can claim offshore status (0% corporate tax) if all profits come from abroad.

Curious to know why you choose HK. I am shutting down my HK entity right now because of the political uncertainty and lack of overall trust in Hong Kong. It?s not the place anymore it has been 3 years ago.

Hey Felix, goal was to build some substance in HK in order to be able to claim that business was conducted in HK. Would also keep the option to claim a Tax Residence Certificate. From my understanding I need a local resident director who can make strategic decisions for the company and evaluate business performance, hence the view access to bank accounts. Bank account would be in SG not HK. I want to be able to be able to sell the business at one point and be set up as tax efficient as possible while staying compliant. That's why I wasn't planning on claiming offshore status. Tax risk would normally be discounted by an investor so it seems better to pay some tax and eliminate the risk. Can still set up a profit sharing agreement between the HK company and an offshore company in the Seychelles or something to lower the tax burden. I believe I have 18month after company inception to decide whether I want to claim it or not, that's enough time to collect more info to make a more informed decision. HK seemed like the obvious choice for this considering no capital gains tax, no dividend tax, no withholding tax. What are your criteria for incorporating and where are you relocating your business to? Thanks a ton for you insights! This option has only been on my radar for a few months so I wanna make sure its' the right move. Would hate to change everything again in 2 years.

> Which company fo you take to incorporate? Company that's offering the service is called accoplus. have you heard of them?

@markusrahr which agent are you using to open a private interest foundation? How much it will be?

No, haven?t heard about them. I was using Fastlane and it has been painful for the last 2 years. Will do this years audit with a different company.

I was the director of my HK entity without being actually in HK. I am not sure why you would need to hire a local resident director for that. I relocated out business to Singapore. Saw in 2019 a mass moving of tech companies to Singapore after the first time the protests started. Good friends of mine required funding for their HK entities and all (mainly US) based investor pulled their term sheets because they were not certain if China takes over soon. A majority of people I knew in Hong Kong relocated to Singapore. Singapore has a great eco-system for startups, also offers 50% tax break for new companies (_The eligible *startups* in *Singapore* will be exempted from any *tax* on the first S$100,000 of the normal chargeable income. Additionally, the *company* will be exempted up to 50% of *tax* on the next $200,000 normal chargeable income. This exemption is applicable to the *startup* for its first 3 consecutive assessment years._) And the corp tax rate is similar to HK

Can't you use the foundation asn member of pass through LLCs which hold your investments? That way you'd silo the risks. Also, I wonder if getting an EIN for the foundation would allow it to bank in the US.

As far as I know, you can protect your assets in a foundation but there are a number of requirements that must be met. It?s definitely worth talking to an assets protection lawyer first before setting up such a structure. As for banking, yes you?ll need an account in the name of the foundation. The reason is that IBKR will not accept third-party deposits (the name on the account must match that of your foundation). @bigworld In theory it?s possible for a foreign entity to open a US bank account but in practice it?s almost unheard of (especially for entities in high risk countries such as Panama).

Find a woman much richer than you, or one that will sign and agree a contract on your terms.

@bigworld That sounds like a very good idea! Thanks for sharing. @simon Thanks for sharing the details. As I'm not comfortable banking in Panama or similar, I'll try and see if I can find another US/EU/Canadian broker that can accept deposits/withdrawals with this setup.

These ones: https://lpoffshore.com/services-view/offshore-foundations/

Thanks a ton Felix! This helps A LOT. Gonna look into Singapore then

Sure! Happy to help. I believe from an international investor standpoint Singapore is also the more stable economy and they will be more comfortable to do an M&A there than in HK

Anyone have experience of using a Belize Trust for asset protection?

I have zero actual experience here, but Belize just hit a debt to GDP ratio of 138% ... which would be concerning for me if I was storing assets there.

I would not recommend storing assets anywhere in the Caribbean / Latin America. For financial assets, the major English speaking countries (perhaps Ireland too, if you aren?t worried about the EU connection), SG and HK are far safer.

Not even a Nevis trust or Cook Island trust, Simon?

Agree, that SG is much safer bet than the Caribbean. HK is in question imho, due to the protests and Chinas increasing influence.

I wouldn?t worry too much about China, at least as far as assets protection is concerned. As for Nevis / Cook Island, setting up an entity / trust there is fine but I wouldn?t hold any assets with local banks, brokerages etc.

Thank you for the comments on the trust. Agree with the local banks.

@simon do you have any experience with Swiss associations as holding company when the objective is simply to hold shares?

I've read that then the association could sell those shares for a nominal price

The use case would be for example Person A living in high tax country from where he could want to move in few years, he doesn't want to pay any exit tax and having a holding company would not be an option because of CFC rules

@marziovit I don?t have experience with Swiss associations but I?ve heard of a few people using them (in one case as a partner in an LLP).

Having a swiss association as a partner in an LLP is my porn dream! But then again forget about having a bank account opened

I sent an inquire both to Wise and Mercury and both replied that to have an account opened they need UBO's passport ID

what is a Swiss association?

Ah ok, I see. My sister has one in Lausanne for charity projects!

I've read that properly structured can be used for asset protection :slightly_smiling_face:

@marziovit oh I see, interesting

Mercury? Which country would the LLP be registered in, US?

Hey everyone :slightly_smiling_face: Can anyone recommend a lawyer for asset protection strategy and setup of trust/foundation in regards to this?

Does anybody know of a high level guide for Americans concerning asset protection via Singapore based business or trust?

I?ve been based in SE Asia the last many years (mostly Thailand, on the 20 yr elite visa) but have been doing business increasingly by myself and would like to do so more optimally

I know about CFC rules for US people which is why I think SG based strategy may not be totally straightforward, so would appreciate a reference :+1:

Banking secrecy keeps getting eroded in Portugal. :man-shrugging: A couple of years ago banks started to have to inform the government of accounts with more than 50k on them. Now they will have to provide the identity and access logs of everyone who rents safe deposit boxes or has access to them.

What about providing blockchain addresses?

Does anyone know a place that creates digital wills or how to create one that is enforcable?

By digital will, you simply mean a way for uploading your will and have it certified by a notary?

All I know, is that in the Netherlands you still have to come in person at least once, to sign it.

Fuck Portugal and all EU countries, especially the south

I think in Germany it needs to be resigned every 5 years or so.. and forget about anything digital there hahahah

For example, your crypto assets

Hmm if you want a custodial solution you'd go to something like BitGO or any bank with crypto custodial solutions and define your heirs in your will. The better way is a non custodial solution. E.g. keep the private keys 'somewhere' of a wallet with the assets and provide a location in your secret will with the notary. Many ways to go about it. Another way, something I'd maybe consider (probably not, but oke ..still the best solution) is to setup a multi signature wallet. Eg http://gnosis-safe.io ? Set it up with 4 owners (each owner = a private key) ? 2 owners you provide each to a separate notary OR 1 to a notary and one in a rented bank vault. Your will should provide Access to both keys to your heirs at all times. ? The two other owners are yourself. Preferably two separate hardware wallets. ? The multi sig wallet (eg Gnosis Safe) has a signing threshold of 2/4 (can also be 3/4 or 4/4 but in this case we simply want '2FA' and don't want to have 4 signers). Meaning, in order to send out funds, the transaction needs to be signed by at least two owners.

I already use a setup like that, but minus the bank vault and notary :)

Thank you a lot for your post, Michel! Really valuable. Are you somehow related to Gnosis or more details on founder security, etc.?

Related yes. As for security, it's quite a battle tested smart contract and eg Bitfinex has put all their cold storage ETH in a Gnosis Safe.

Some metrics https://duneanalytics.com/tschubotz/gnosis-safe_2

Thank you for sharing

Another option (have never used it) https://keys.casa/pricing

@tiagomdreganha I think you?re the best guy to ask, but would you know the best way to manage multiple portuguese properties, renting through airnbnb and booking and such, with paying as little taxes possible anywhere?

The properties would be financed or already paid for?

i mean, i already have them

or of other potential owners as well

the angle here is the renting business, not so much the ownership

At scale, if you have a lot of expenses with managing the properties, opening up a Portuguese company is always beneficial because you can write off anything you buy for the properties. You don't have to put the houses in your business name, or even have the business rent it out from you, you can draw a "Declaração de Usufruto" which is a contract that conceedes use of a property to another, for free. It's commonly used and accepted by the tax man, with it you can change electricity and water bill to the company name and put all expenses under the company, except for property tax. There's always some tax to pay, but if already draw a salary from another company and pay Social Security elsewhere, you won't have to draw a salary. (you'll be taxed to death via salary) There's a 21% tax at company profit level, and then you can draw dividends and that will be taxed depending on your country of residency. For a Portuguese resident taking dividends from a Portuguese company, we can choose a flat rate of 28% or have it added to our "regular" income statement with only 50% of it being actually considered. The biggest tax bracket is around 50%, which means that efectively the max income tax rate will always be lower than 25% and will be significantly lower in the lower brackets of income. My effective tax rate from company profits to personal bank account is around 35%. (21% company level, then 17.5% personal level). + personal expenses / travel that I can write off as business cost. Because I operate my regular business + airbnb out of my company, I can write off a lot of personal expenses that wouldn't be accepted without the airbnb on it (anything house related...) Another option is to do it under your personal name with a simplified accounting regime, I believe only 15% to 35% of revenues were considered as profit, so you'd only pay income tax on that. But with the left wing in the government they raised the flat rate taxes to 50% in specific areas (Lisbon etc). This is probably the best option if you don't have a lot of expenses, the bigger your margins are compared to the "considered" margin, the better this gets. The simplest option would be to find a company to manage it for you, and they would rent out the property from you (28% flat rate tax at personal level). There are a few grey zone things you can do at a small scale that may fly under radar, like renting out the house for a low value to the management company, then invoice them from a better tax company/country for services for the remaining. But at scale that will probably give you troubles with the tax man and finding a management company willing to do this may be hard. And don't even try this if you own the management company. I think you should meet with a few rental management companies and see how they work / want to work.

So you?re saying having someone else do the grunt work is worth it?

because as of now i have automated all the cleaning, checkin in and out tasks

i just dont think right now im tax efficient enough

i?m close to 10 properties under management, 6 mine? and i dont think im fully tax efficient yet

but the rest of the stuff is good

tax efficiency in Portugal is close to impossible ahah

what's your current setup?

so this is where it gets messy

i have a uk llp for some of these, some are personal, and some are under my moms name